88 on the Button

[colgin]

I just started playing 6-max so I don't have hardly any data on opponents. I just sat down at this table so I don't have any great reads on villain although he has not gotten out of line and does not seem overly aggressive.

Party Poker (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds, CO raises, Button three-bets, SB calls, CO calls</font>.
(Pot = 10SBs)
Flop: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, CO checks, Button bets, SB calls, CO folds.
(Pot = 7 BBs)
Turn: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Button bets, SB calls.
(Pot = 9BBs)
River: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Button (Hero) bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13BBs

All comments are appreciated.

[Nietzsche]

I play it the same on all streets.

[Lost Wages]

Everything looks fine. Good preflop 3-bet and post flop value betting. The only debateable decision is whether or not to call the checkraise. Without a read I think you have to look him up here. He could have been chasing a flush and try to bluff the scare card, though most bluffers just bet out here.

Lost Wages

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything looks fine. Good preflop 3-bet and post flop value betting. The only debateable decision is whether or not to call the checkraise. Without a read I think you have to look him up here. He could have been chasing a flush and try to bluff the scare card, though most bluffers just bet out here.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

That pretty much sums it for me, too.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
The only debateable decision is whether or not to call the checkraise. Without a read I think you have to look him up here. He could have been chasing a flush and try to bluff the scare card, though most bluffers just bet out here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a little hard perssed to think of instances in my full games where I got check-raised on the river and my top piar/overpair hand was good. I just havn't seen outright bluffs and wonder if I am paying off too much in those circumstances. Here though I was unfamiliar with the player, unsure whether check-raise bluffs might be more common at 6-max, plus I had a hard time putting him on a ten as I would have expected him to check-raise the flop or turn if he did.

[coolhanded]

I like it all until the river. I would just check, as I don't think it's a good spot to value bet. SB called a 3-bet pre-flop and stayed in all the way. If you have SB beat, there's a good chance he folds the river anyway, in which case you don't win another bet. If he has you beat, you lose 1 or 2 more bets. I just check and take the showdown.

[PokerBob]

I think I'd check the river, but I play bad. Actually, I may bet. I think this OK.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

I am a little hard perssed to think of instances in my full games where I got check-raised on the river and my top piar/overpair hand was good. I just havn't seen outright bluffs and wonder if I am paying off too much in those circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are playing 5/10, you'll see all kinds of crazy [censored].

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd check the river, but I play bad. Actually, I may bet. I think this OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

gross. you realize you are getting called by ANY pair here.

[sammy_g]

I bet/fold this river without a read.

If I know the player is aggressive/tricky, I bet/call the river.

[mscags]

I play it the same, but I think you can safely fold on the river. If this guy hasn't gotten out of line you can almost be positive that you are beat. This is usaully an easy value bet. Villian can be calling you down with just about anything including middle pair bottom pair, a small pp, Ace high. Don't assume he has the T until he raises.

[coolhanded]

Betting and being check-raised, you're saying don't call and possibly folding the best hand. Betting and him folding means you didn't earn another bet. Checking through means you pay nothing more to know. I think betting here is negative EV. Check.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting and being check-raised, you're saying don't call and possibly folding the best hand. Betting and him folding means you didn't earn another bet. Checking through means you pay nothing more to know. I think betting here is negative EV. Check.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an absolutely atrocious analysis. what range of hands do you put villain on? what hands will he call? raise? or fold?

if the number of hands that he will call with that you beat is greater than the number he will raise or fold it is a VALUE bet.

imo he will call with any pair including, 2,3,5 66 or 77. you beat all those hands. the hands you lose to are trip 10's, 99 and maybe jj. you can see there are far more hands that you beat.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd check the river, but I play bad. Actually, I may bet. I think this OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think whether you should value bet this depends on the opponent. There are plenty of passive villains who will call down with any pocket pair or part of the board to make this +EV.

[alta_chuttes]

[ QUOTE ]
if the number of hands that he will call with that you beat is greater than the number he will raise or fold it is a VALUE bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming you fold to a check-raise, right? I agree this is an easy value bet.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
imo he will call with any pair including, 2,3,5 66 or 77.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, and I would even add stuff like AK and AQ to the list.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if the number of hands that he will call with that you beat is greater than the number he will raise or fold it is a VALUE bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming you fold to a check-raise, right? I agree this is an easy value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

no. you dont have to fold to a checkraise so long as you estimate that he will checkraise bluff (maybe with a missed flush draw in this situation) a large enough percentage of the time. this, of course, is based on reads. a passive player means you should fold but a tricky or laggy player means you should call down. also, history can serve as a good indicator if you have seen villain make some river bluffs.

also, he could be overplaying some ands like a5 or 66, 77. as pokerbob said earlier, you will see all kinds of siht at 5-10.

[colgin]

Villain had KTo and MHING.

The river bet seemed like a really easy value bet to me. However, the decision to call the C/R was tough because I did not have a solid read. Against a non-tricky player I would have folded.

[coolhanded]

Read my earlier post. With what hand do you think villain is calling a 3-bet pre-flop and seeing the turn and river? Heart draw folds river, so hero bet mostly likely earns nothing. I don’t think some x2, x3, or x5 hand is all that likely to call a 3-bet from SB (with no read, you shouldn’t assume that the player is some wacko LAG, though I’ll agree there are plenty that play short-handed tables). Pocket pairs are believable---including sets (22, 33, 55). 44, 66, 77 would likely call, I agree. So would 99. His decision to not check-raise the flop with a T is interesting, though the 3-bet helps explain that as he could have put hero on AA, KK, QQ, or JJ. Given these considerations, checking seems best.

How's that analysis?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd check the river, but I play bad. Actually, I may bet. I think this OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

gross. you realize you are getting called by ANY pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, i play bad.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
imo he will call with any pair including, 2,3,5 66 or 77. you beat all those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're correct, but look at the action....he basically called 3 out of the SB....IMO this likely eliminates him holding a 2,3 and likely 5 from consideration here

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
Read my earlier post. With what hand do you think villain is calling a 3-bet pre-flop and seeing the turn and river? Heart draw folds river, so hero bet mostly likely earns nothing. I don’t think some x2, x3, or x5 hand is all that likely to call a 3-bet from SB (with no read, you shouldn’t assume that the player is some wacko LAG, though I’ll agree there are plenty that play short-handed tables). Pocket pairs are believable---including sets (22, 33, 55). 44, 66, 77 would likely call, I agree. So would 99. His decision to not check-raise the flop with a T is interesting, though the 3-bet helps explain that as he could have put hero on AA, KK, QQ, or JJ. Given these considerations, checking seems best.

How's that analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

much better analysis. however, there is a ton of players who will call ax here. i mean, like a ton.

here is their thought process. hmmm, 3bets to me, the pot will be big. wow, i have an ace. click.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd check the river, but I play bad. Actually, I may bet. I think this OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

gross. you realize you are getting called by ANY pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, i play bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

you likely dont play as bad as you think. you likely would play better if you thought better.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd check the river, but I play bad. Actually, I may bet. I think this OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

gross. you realize you are getting called by ANY pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, i play bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

you likely dont play as bad as you think. you likely would play better if you thought better.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, i think bad. I'm a teacher you know. Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. I'm still not sure that a river check here sucks rocks. IMO villains only reasonable range here is a small pp, a busted draw or a hand like JT that is stuck.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
(with no read, you shouldn’t assume that the player is some wacko LAG, though I’ll agree there are plenty that play short-handed tables).

[/ QUOTE ]
With no read at the Party 5/10 tables, I assume loose/passive. Villain's play in this hand -- cold-calling 3 from the SB and check-calling every street -- has only helped cement that image for me.

I think your range on villain is too narrow. You'll frequently see people showdown ace high hands here like AK and AQ and often worse. Sometimes you'll see weird stuff if they're a really loose. The T pairing on the end makes me more confident that we are ahead.

I started betting a lot more rivers, and I'm constantly amazed what people will call with.

You're right this is a thin value bet, and maybe a check is better if we plan to call the raise. I still like bet/fold.

[coolhanded]

[ QUOTE ]
here is their thought process. hmmm, 3bets to me, the pot will be big. wow, i have an ace. click.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's good stuff---reminds me of a guy I played against last night.

I agree plenty of players at these tables will call with Ax, but hero shouldn't assume he's up against one of these without knowing.

Villain's basically calling 3 cold with KTo from SB was dumb, so hero should file that away.

[Lmn55d]

Standard.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet/fold this river without a read.

If I know the player is aggressive/tricky, I bet/call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my thought process. I'll add that most players arent aggressive/tricky with their river checkraises. Therefore, I think percentage wise it would be more correct to assume that a river cr is real far more often then it's not......and so I'd rather wait till i'm up a against a player that I sense is capable.

Edit: And I dont think you are good here 1 in 12 vs unknowns. Against tricky players sure man.

THis hand looks like a standard bet/fold to me.

[Lmn55d]

doesn't it seem weird to you that a villain would play top pair passively until the river then checkrasie it? I mean I've seen it before and this could be a set as well, but I think its definitely worth a call against an unknown. The actions up to that point seem a bit contradictory and the river is a great scare card.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree plenty of players at these tables will call with Ax, but hero shouldn't assume he's up against one of these without knowing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, but what good players just call here with *any* hand when it's 3 bets to them? Good players cap or fold in this spot.

The guy called 3 bets cold from the small blind and just checked/called every street. I'm going to assume loose/passive donkey until he shows me I'm wrong.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't it seem weird to you that a villain would play top pair passively until the river then checkrasie it <font color="blue"> Slightly, yes </font> ? I mean I've seen it before and this could be a set as well, but I think its definitely worth a call against an unknown. The actions up to that point seem a bit contradictory and the river is a great scare card. <font color="blue"> True, but are Colgins'unknown opponents going to be cr'ing river scarecards 1 of 12 times? I could be wrong, maybe even grossly wrong....but without knowing more than I know- I think it's more profitable to fold... esp at 3/6 or 5/10</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't it seem weird to you that a villain would play top pair passively until the river then checkrasie it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really if villain thinks he might be against an overpair in this spot. Hero did 3 bet. Villain makes trips on the river and checkraises.

(I'm not saying villain's play is good...)

[JrJordan]

Getting 12:1 on the river when there's no previous inclination the villain had top pair before, I make this call about 95% of the time. The remaining 5% is for only the most passive opponents who don't know what the word checkraise means. An unknow player could be doing this with a 66/77 type hand because he knows you can't 3-bet if you have an overpair and might get a call from any lower pair. Easy call IMO.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Read my earlier post. With what hand do you think villain is calling a 3-bet pre-flop and seeing the turn and river?


[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, when the SB calls 3 preflop in these games it doesn't mean he has any kind of a hand. It means he's an idiot.

I bet the river 100%, hate the check-raise, know I should fold, and call anyway.

You're almost never good here unless you know the villain to be tricky. Definite bet-fold on the river. Do as I say, not as I do.

Guy.

[coolhanded]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, when the SB calls 3 preflop in these games it doesn't mean he has any kind of a hand. It means he's an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It doesn't mean he doesn't have you beat or that betting the river is +EV.


[ QUOTE ]
I bet the river 100%, hate the check-raise, know I should fold, and call anyway. You're almost never good here unless you know the villain to be tricky. Definite bet-fold on the river. Do as I say, not as I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your advice is bet/fold...which you wouldn't actually do...

Crazy game, poker...

[arkady]

I am surprised that this hand resulted in such a debate. This is indeed an incredibly easy bet on the river (bob), in fact checking behind on that river is incredibly weak. Not only will any pair pay off, but AK-AJ will too, a hand very likely held by someone calling 3 cold from the SB.

As far as calling the raise and colgin stressed it correctly, he didn't know the player. If you don't know then you definitely invest and make a note of it. Normally you would expect TP to raise somewhere along the way, so the raise seems suspicious. But the T is as good of a card as Hero could have hoped to get.

In this particular instance SB is actually a somewhat timid/passive player and was scared even holding TP due to colgin'd preflop strength. Note and move on. Well done.

[alta_chuttes]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as calling the raise and colgin stressed it correctly, he didn't know the player. If you don't know then you definitely invest and make a note of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a smaller pair or a bluff u gotta keep calling but there's nothing he can show you that makes you want to fold in a similar situation, right? A T or even 99 doesn't preclude a bluff in a pot this big, right?

[StellarWind]

Preflop, flop, and turn are all routine and good.

Here is what you need to know about the river: you must bet. You beat almost all the things that are calling you down. Most of the time he has a ten you'd be facing a bet right now. Checkraises are too infrequent to worry about. If you just decided to always payoff checkraises this would still be a great value bet.

I don't even think about how to answer this type of checkraise until it actually happens. Now that it has happened you need to make a decision.

If you call you will win once in a while but not very often. No one can tell you with certainty whether your 12-1 pot odds are good enough because the available information is very subjective. Probably the decision is close and it doesn't matter very much. It only feels important because the whole pot is on the line.

I would call because I have virtually everything but the actual scare card covered. If I had 44 I'd let it go because I can't beat the five. This keeps my play random-looking and ensures that the 'tween hands like 77 and 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif never steal anything they aren't entitled to.

But the most important thing is make a decision fairly quickly and don't look back. Don't waste a lot of energy or become upset over a situation that doesn't have a clear right answer. Folding quickly also helps other players believe that you were just bluffing. "Bluffers" get action but "folders" get trouble.

[arkady]

if I understand what you are asking....then, right.

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
"Bluffers" get action but "folders" get trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]
This point is key. Good post- I try not to stress much over tough river decisions knowing that it can't be much of a mistake either way in the long run if it's such a tough decision.