Hero tries to steal - Villain comes over the top

[Wevie]

Party 10+1

Tourney has been nothing but steals lately. Haven't seen a flop for a while and a showdown for a long while.

***** Hand History for Game 2423824835 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:14256705 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Monday, July 25, 20:43:32 EDT 2005
Table Table 11233 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 10: I__Sharted ( $1165 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $1660 )
Seat 9: husseya ( $2205 )
Seat 4: VILLAIN ( $1295 )
Seat 5: Loder1 ( $1675 )
Trny:14256705 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kc Qs ]
HERO raises [500].
husseya folds.
I__Sharted folds.
VILLAIN is all-In [1220]



HERO ???


First, would you feel comfortable calling with this?

Second, would a push instead of a raise been ideal to begin with? Do you think Villain would have pushed regardless?

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]

Second, would a fold instead of a raise been ideal to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[KyleM]

he's shortstacked pretty bad and probably desperate. if you fold then you're short stacked bad. I definitely call, unless villain is one of those people that only raise w/AA.

[tigerite]

Short-stacked, with 8BB? Are you mad? You should fold KQo preflop from here, and definitely not raise to over 3BB with it.

[Wevie]

HERO calls [795].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, Jd, 9c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
HERO shows [ Kc, Qs ] a pair of nines.
VILLAIN shows [ Ah, Jc ] two pairs, jacks and nines.
VILLAIN wins 2740 chips from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and nines.
Game #2423828641 starts.

[tigerite]

I rest my case. Next time fold KQo UTG 5-handed with this many chips.

[schwza]

i would open for 350 and call either short stack and fold to the two equal/bigger stacks.

auto-call after raising to 500.

[curtains]

I would fold preflop here. I have a serious problem with putting 500 chips out there if I don't plan to defend them. One hole that I think a lot of players have is they make these silly raises for like 20-30% of their stack.

You are basically destroying the value of your hand when you do this. It means nothing that you have KQo if you plan to fold to a raise here. You may as well have 32o. Im exagerating a little, but just because you have a "raising hand", doesn't mean you have to raise it in sit and gos. If you don't feel comfortable simply moving allin, then I'd suggest just folding the hand most of the time.

Once again, your hand is worth a raise based on it's value, but probably not an allin raise. However I don't really care about that, and because of sit and go prize structures and the fact that I refuse to leave a large percentage of my stack in the middle of the pot if I don't plan on defending it, I would usually fold here.

[schwza]

i think this post would make more sense if there were not the short stacks in play (including the BB, i think). KQ plays reasonably well against their ranges as they're going to be more active.

[Big Limpin']

Dont open raise UTG unless you have already decided to call an allin.

(best) fold > limp > push > raise 3BB (worst)

doesnt really matter what you have unless its JJ+ or AK, in which case a 3BB is ok becasue you arent going anywhere, and might get action that you wouldnt with a push.

BL' - position concious

[pooh74]

most of the replies are right in that your PF raise is pretty bad. depending on the table...i would fold about 80% of the time and call 10% and push 10%.

But given that, what do you do given your mistake? You fear basically 4 hands: AK, AA-QQ. you have roughly 2-1 to call and none of these hands have you 2-1 dog or better. That said, throw in the rest of the hands villain would do this with and the strong likely hood that he would trap with AA...as so many like to do...makes this a call. Bad raise preflop, but you basically backed youself into a corner where the odds dictate a call.

Fold this preflop. 150 blinds arent high to merit a steal and your stack isnt big enough to limp in with. If something about this particular table is telling you that they will fear and respect an UTG limp, the go for it...but I, personally, wouldnt make a habit of this.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
i think this post would make more sense if there were not the short stacks in play (including the BB, i think). KQ plays reasonably well against their ranges as they're going to be more active.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am unhappy to be allin against even the 1100-1200 stacks. KQ doesn't play well against their range if they reraise me here, meanwhile Im pot committed and have to make a very very unpleasant call.

[danger_mouse]

Eek. I've been comfortible with my SNG game for months and suddenly a question comes up where players I respect take a completely different stance on a hand.

Isn't folding KQo a little tight 5-handed? By this stage, I'm usually happy to have this hand to blind steal with.

Now with that said, I'm not raising to 500. I'm raising to 400. If the BB pushes, I make my decision to call based on whether or not he is desperate, dumb, playing back at me, or has a big hand. I don't mind being stuck with only 8BB if necessary. If I see the flop, I can still often get the pot with a continuation bet because of position-- even if I miss.

Am I putting too many chips at risk on a marginal hand? What kind of hand should I wait for to raise in this situation?

[EnderFFX]

Best post ever. Just found a huge hole in my game thanx to this post. A quick question, what hands are you 3x BB with? Or is that not an option?

[curtains]

Raising is not terrible or anything, your hand has value in this situation, but it's just not my style. I prefer to fold. I just don't put in a large chunk of my stack in sit and gos with 4-5 players left with the idea of folding for the rest. Your chips are too valuable right now to just put 400-500 chips in there and leave them out to dry.

Okay it happens sometimes but very rarely. If I'm playing a hand I'm going to back it with all my chips the large majority of the time.

[The Don]

doh misread (thought it was from the SB for some reason)... I still like the raise though. If the blinds fold one in three times you get your value... surely they will do this.

[tigerite]

FWIW I agree with you. Also, the OP has that tricky 11-12BB amount where a raise leaves you under 10BB, and I hate to raise in that situation without a really good hand that, as you say, you're willing to go all the way with. Perhaps with 15+ BB it wouldn't be such a bad move, but I still don't like it even then. It is definitely a style issue.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your play is fine. I would raise to 400 from the SB though. There is no way I am giving up my SB with a hand like KQo. This is where you have to use reads. Is villian the type that would come over the top with any 2 cards? Has he been playing tight or loose? You are getting 2-1 on your call but given you are in a tournament situation I would like to be pretty sure I had a decent shot at having the best hand when I called this. I think it is a fold versus most players. I can't believe some people are actually advocating folding to the BB here. This is outrageous. How often does the villian actually come over the top here? Hell, you gain what you lose in the long run (assuming a 400 raise) if he does it one in three times. I think in a normal situation it is one in ten times or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

He raised it UTG, not from the SB /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Eek. I've been comfortible with my SNG game for months and suddenly a question comes up where players I respect take a completely different stance on a hand.

Isn't folding KQo a little tight 5-handed? By this stage, I'm usually happy to have this hand to blind steal with.

Now with that said, I'm not raising to 500. I'm raising to 400. If the BB pushes, I make my decision to call based on whether or not he is desperate, dumb, playing back at me, or has a big hand. I don't mind being stuck with only 8BB if necessary. If I see the flop, I can still often get the pot with a continuation bet because of position-- even if I miss.

Am I putting too many chips at risk on a marginal hand? What kind of hand should I wait for to raise in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

From UTG? One you want a call from.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Best post ever. Just found a huge hole in my game thanx to this post. A quick question, what hands are you 3x BB with? Or is that not an option?

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, when players raise 3BB UTG and they have ~BB total, how could they not call a reraise? This isnt the WPT final table...we dont have large enough stacks here. If you want the blinds, take em...but know you're essentially risking your whole stack to do so, otherwise fold...150 blinds arent worth it to me...

Am I raising UTG with JQo? No, how is KQo that much different?

[Wevie]

>>>>we dont have large enough stacks here<<<<<


Ah, this is where my thought process took me eventually. I had been pushing a lot in this part of the tourney's and it had been working OK. I dropped that to ~5BB and it seemed to work better as the same number of folds without losing all my chips to a call. Dropping to ~3BB definitely didn't scare off enough hands.

I think 3-5BB would be OK if I were stacked 14+BB agree?

[tigerite]

I still don't like it, the risk to reward ratio is too much, 1.5BB is not going to improve your stack enough. Just fold it.