need help playing online poker - i don' understand why i lose this wee

hi

The last week I was doing well playing online (I play 3/6 limit, size 6 tables). I played over 4000 hands, usually during the evening for long periods of time (maybe 5-8 hrs total a day - of course with breaks). Throughout that week, I was consistently up every day by at least $100/day. Of course each day I had ups and downs by several hundred dollars, but I *was* up overall.


Then, the last two days I crashed $700 and I can't recover at the same rate I was winning last week. I do not understand why. My style of play is not any different, I am not fatiged, the environment around me is the same. I don't understand. Can anybody help out with insight? The last 2 days I've played 1500 hands.

I am a tight - slightly loose aggressive player who plays size 6 or smaller tables only.

I tried playing heads yesterday and today, and generally against 80-90% of the people i play against, I make a net profit...

I tried moving to 5/10 table for a few hours, generally I wasn't faring as well as on the 3/6 table - the ups and downs were much higher.

I can also post stats if you guys need it (i use poker tracker)

[jman220]

Stop playing poker. Read a few 2+2 books if you haven't already. Read these forums, a lot, especially the Small stakes Holdem forum. Do not read oot. Resume playing poker but step down in limits, severely. Post hands and ask for feedback. When you are told by people that a lot of the hands are misplayed for various reasons, accept the advice and improve. Read Bankroll and Bankroll management forum. Gradually improve and step up in limits, provided that your bankroll is adequate.

Or: Get a bunch of responses to this thread, most of them sarcastic. Become defensive and argumentative. Insist that you are a good poker player even though your results are not good. Suggest that online poker is rigged. Continue losing overall with occasional upswings that will convince you that you are a long term winner.

You are at a crossroads, the choice is yours. Welcome to the forum.

First of all I am new to the forums so don't flame me, thanks

I agree with part 1) of your post. I'm going to buy those 2+2 books (listed on the other threads...) and read them. And partake in many of your part 1 suggestions.

I'm quite open to suggestions and all, so don't berate me for any of my opinions....

I am approximately 2BB/100 hands though that is sloping down due to my current playing...is this good or bad?!?

So I think the major source of my loss comes from two things:
1) playing too much / fatigue / time of play
2) Overplaying certain hands even when clearly I am beaten, attempting a semi-bluff / bluff / steal and continuing to bet even though clearly beaten

I play 5-8 hrs a day, what about you guys?

More details for #2) I saw a bunch of hands I had today and yesterday where i had something strong like KK or high two pair, with a 4 cards to a straight on the table, and yet I would call on the river. Also seemingly during a pot steal if reraised, I will usually call or reraise (end up spending more money). I believe it is situations like this is what ends up costing me major bucks as each of these situations is a medium to semi-large pot which I lose. Is there an easy way to track this (poker tracker)? Or do you guys have this problem too?

[mdeck]

If you have questions about how you played hands, go through your Hand Histories and post specific ones in Small Stakes or Heads-Up Shorthanded. You'll get better strategy responses than by just asking broad questions here.

Secondly, you've only played like 4000 hands. Thats nothing. After that many hands, your stats, especially winrate are insignificant. There have been winning players that have gone on 30,000 hand break-even streaks, and very good players who lost 400BB over 10,000 hands. In poker, variance is huge, even moreso in Shorthanded play. If you can't handle the swings, drop down to limits where the monetary amounts don't matter so much.

It's important that you stop giving money absolute values and thinking about your results in terms of final dollar amounts. This attitude is just going to make you tilt and prevent you from becoming a better player.

You need to follow jmans advice. 3/6 is not the same game online as it is live, and if you haven't read many poker books yet you may be in for a surprise. I'd say drop down, read some books, and once you feel that you understand many of the concepts presented move up.

Good Luck

ahh
thanks.

I've played 50k+ hands online, but only 5000 or so have been on ~3/6 limit tables and have pocker tracker statistics.

Also the BB/100 stat in pokertracker doesn't include the rake amount i just noticed. Does anybody know how to change that so that it does include it?

I guess I'm not used to the swings...haven't played enough 3/6 hands.

i am sorry to heard that
i can try http://www.everestofcasino.com i win 234.5 at here
they are poker have $100 sign up bonus

[Rascal]

[ QUOTE ]

I am a tight - slightly loose aggressive player who plays size 6 or smaller tables only.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats your problem there u dont know anything about poker. I think your playing well above ur station in life.

[MicroBob]

your sample size is ridiculously small and you obviously have no grasp on the inherent variance in the game.

Even the very best players would have similar down-swings playing on the party 2/4 tables or lower. that's just because there are such things as 'tough hands' and 'losing sessions'.


The best poker players probably only win 60-65% of their sessions.
2BB/100 is a good win-rate...but you don't if that's your true win-rate until many more thousands of hands.


you pat yourself on the back when you are up $100 and you wonder what's gone so horribly wrong when you lose $100.
This is less than 20BB's at 3/6.

You should regularly have swings that are larger than this.



Based on your misunderstanding of the variance involved I suggest that you are not a very good poker player.
The suggestions and comments in the first reply to this thread are actually correct even though you think he was just flaming you.


Some of the veterans around here (including me) have seen these posts about a zillion times before:
- new poster comes on here. just KNOWS that he is a good player...but doesn't understand why he isn't winning as much as he thinks he should
- through his post he continues to express his thoughts on some aspect of poker that shows a GROSS misunderstanding and obviously indicates that he is NOT as good as he thinks he is
- veteran posters around here proceed to tell him...either politely or not so politely...that he is REALLY missing the mark with his ideas and that he needs to step down in limits and gain as much knowledge as he can from these forums
- new poster just thinks he is getting flamed and gets defensive.....OR....new poster eventually becomes convinced after 20 or so different veteran posters all give their unanimous approval to the general notion that the new player just isn't that hot of a player. after about 20 different people ALL agreeing you'd have to be pretty darned stubborn not to realize that you are just being defensive and that you really ARE missing out on some fairly simple and fundamental aspects of what it takes to be a consistent winning player.


again - as previous poster stated, it's your choice.
listen to the advice here that you REALLY are confused about some things AND that you are likely over-estimating your poker ability...
OR, get defensive and insist that you are a solid, winning player in spite of all the other veteran, winning players who are telling you otherwise.


i know i'm being a bit harsh here...but i might link to a post like this one for the future posts such as this.
they are getting more and more frequent.

[Ray Of Light]

post your poker tracker stats... that will be able to give us a better idea about how you are playing...

[Ricardido]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop playing poker. Read a few 2+2 books if you haven't already. Read these forums, a lot, especially the Small stakes Holdem forum. Do not read oot. Resume playing poker but step down in limits, severely. Post hands and ask for feedback. When you are told by people that a lot of the hands are misplayed for various reasons, accept the advice and improve. Read Bankroll and Bankroll management forum. Gradually improve and step up in limits, provided that your bankroll is adequate.

Or: Get a bunch of responses to this thread, most of them sarcastic. Become defensive and argumentative. Insist that you are a good poker player even though your results are not good. Suggest that online poker is rigged. Continue losing overall with occasional upswings that will convince you that you are a long term winner.

You are at a crossroads, the choice is yours. Welcome to the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

amen.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Also the BB/100 stat in pokertracker doesn't include the rake amount i just noticed.

[/ QUOTE ]



your BB/100 stat is the amount of money that you have won at the tables.

the rake stat is kept seperately if that is something that interests you. it is not 'taken out' of the your BB/100 stat per-se.
when you win a $50 pot and the site rakes $2 then $50 is what is reflected in your BB/100....and $2 is what is reflected in the rake part.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Read Bankroll and Bankroll management forum

[/ QUOTE ]


huh??

what bankroll management forum?

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello,

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Bye bye Mario

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, four posts, all today, and allthe exact same spam. Nice to see we've got another valuable contributor to our forums...

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all I am new to the forums so don't flame me, thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Sliding towards option 2...

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read Bankroll and Bankroll management forum

[/ QUOTE ]


huh??

what bankroll management forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, brain fart from my UPF days. I should just say, read up on bankroll management, there are plenty of great posts on this site if you do a serach.

[MicroBob]

UPF??


United Poker Forum??
Undulating Pirahnas Federation??

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
UPF??


United Poker Forum??
Undulating Pirahnas Federation??

[/ QUOTE ]

United Poker Forum. Its how I knew who ATE was. Actually not a bad forum if you're a beginner in terms of useful starting strategy and bankroll advice. 2+2 is much better for deeper strategy though. Plus UPF seems pretty dead these days.

[MicroBob]

I was about to ask who ATE was....and then remembered that I had seen one or two of Adam's posts around here.

I would be proud if I could have said I actually didn't know who you were talking about....but I can't.

straight from Pokertracker

5/10 - 6 max - 236 total hands, -1.12 BB/100hands, 25% VPI
3/6 - 6 max - 5449 total hands, 1.47 BB/100 hands, 30% VPI
3/6 full - 282 total hands, 0.65 BB/100 hands, 35% VPI
2/4 full - 97 total hands, -15.08 BB/100 hands, 20% VPI
1/2 - 6 max - 188 total hands, 19.91 BB/100 hands, 30% VPI
1/2 full - 81 total hands, 1.23 BB/100 hands, 33% VPI


I know i need to play moroe hands, bigger sample size, etc....but this is all i have so far, so I'm throwing it out there so you all know where i'm coming from. Maybe you guys can spot something I can't, I don't know. Are these stats average, or good, or what ?

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
straight from Pokertracker

5/10 - 6 max - 236 total hands, -1.12 BB/100hands, 25% VPI
3/6 - 6 max - 5449 total hands, 1.47 BB/100 hands, 30% VPI
3/6 full - 282 total hands, 0.65 BB/100 hands, 35% VPI
2/4 full - 97 total hands, -15.08 BB/100 hands, 20% VPI
1/2 - 6 max - 188 total hands, 19.91 BB/100 hands, 30% VPI
1/2 full - 81 total hands, 1.23 BB/100 hands, 33% VPI


I know i need to play moroe hands, bigger sample size, etc....but this is all i have so far, so I'm throwing it out there so you all know where i'm coming from. Maybe you guys can spot something I can't, I don't know. Are these stats average, or good, or what ?

[/ QUOTE ]

We need more than just your VP$IP. The only significant one is your 3/6 game where you have 5k+ hands. And for that game, 30 VPIP is high unless you are an extremely good postflop player with a ton of experience, which I don't think you are. Once again, step down in limits until you're consistently beating the small limits for 10k+ hands at least, with a bb/100 of 2. We've all had to step down at some point, myself included, swallow your pride.

[jman220]

For the 3/6 give us your PFR, your PFA factor, your WSD%, your W$WSD. Your BB and SB stats.

thanks for helping me out, heres the PT stats:

3/6 6 max:
total hands: 5509
Players: 5.01
VPI: 29.38
VPI from SB: 41.22
Folded SB to Steal: 78.26
Folded BB to Steal: 57.86
Att to Steal Blinds: 23.77
BB/100 Hands: 1.47
Went to SD%: 33.91
Won $ at SD %: 55.28
PF Raise%: 11.47
Number of Sessions: 117
Avg Pot: 29.38
Hours: 58.27

BB stats for 3/6 6 max:
total hands: 1210
VPI: 24.63
CCPF%: 0.00
Win% in this pos: 29.92
Won$ WSF%: 30.91
BB Won/Hand: (0.11)
Went to SD%: 28.33
Won $ at SD: 53.04
PF Raise% 10.25
Raise First In%: 0.91


SB stats for 3/6 6 max:
total hands: 1145
VPI: 41.22
CCPF%: 0.00
Win% in this pos: 17.38
Won$ WSF%: 37.73
BB Won/Hand: (0.05)
Went to SD%: 32.18
Won $ at SD: 56.83
PF Raise% 17.12
Raise First In%: 11.09

I have varying styles of play that i have been trying out (one includes aggressive preflop play - give action to get action, one is passive - spend less money to see a flop)...the stats above include all of these strategies, so it is a mix

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for helping me out, heres the PT stats:

3/6 6 max:
total hands: 5509
Players: 5.01
VPI: 29.38
VPI from SB: 41.22
Folded SB to Steal: 78.26
Folded BB to Steal: 57.86
Att to Steal Blinds: 23.77
BB/100 Hands: 1.47
Went to SD%: 33.91
Won $ at SD %: 55.28
PF Raise%: 11.47
Number of Sessions: 117
Avg Pot: 29.38
Hours: 58.27

BB stats for 3/6 6 max:
total hands: 1210
VPI: 24.63
CCPF%: 0.00
Win% in this pos: 29.92
Won$ WSF%: 30.91
BB Won/Hand: (0.11)
Went to SD%: 28.33
Won $ at SD: 53.04
PF Raise% 10.25
Raise First In%: 0.91


SB stats for 3/6 6 max:
total hands: 1145
VPI: 41.22
CCPF%: 0.00
Win% in this pos: 17.38
Won$ WSF%: 37.73
BB Won/Hand: (0.05)
Went to SD%: 32.18
Won $ at SD: 56.83
PF Raise% 17.12
Raise First In%: 11.09

I have varying styles of play that i have been trying out (one includes aggressive preflop play - give action to get action, one is passive - spend less money to see a flop)...the stats above include all of these strategies, so it is a mix

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, you have got to get that VP$IP down, and that PFR up. I recommend using a starting hand chart until you learn the ropes, like the one found here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1256134&page=&view=&s b=5&o=

You are definitely limping way too much. I'm betting your probably also making mistakes like cold calling more than one bet (this is almost never correct). 6 max limit is almost a raise or fold situation preflop. I would also start seriously reading the Heads Up and Short Handed forum, and the archives, to work on your post flop play and how to play specific hands.

Hi

what would be a good VPI target? What about PF raise? Does VPI include raising preflop, or strictly calling?

That starting hands chart helps, though does it apply differently for a full table vs 5/6 people?

Oh, and by the way thanks for the advice.

[MicroBob]

VP includes every time you put money into the pot pre-flop (voluntarily) so it includes both raising and calling.

Note - your numbers may be closer to correct if you have played a lot of 3 or 4 handed on those tables.


I think 23/17 or something like that are reasonable on the 6-max tables in your case. others may disagree.



ummm - yeah, the starting chart is for 6-max games...not for full games.

[DeeJ]

Shouted loudly - SAMPLE SIZE!

You cannot possibly get a clue as to how good/bad you are from so few hands. Even at 20,000 hands you are only getting a warmish approximation to the longer run.

Really, at 5k hands you'll have played about 1,200 hands. If you lost/won in big pots on just 10 of those hands against the odds, it'll skew your data horribly.

eg win 8 +20BB pots in the 5000 hands where you were lucky = +160BB or 160BB/5000 = ~3BB/100 whereas if you had lost them, say 8 -6BB pots = ~50BB/5000 or -1BB/100. That's a possible swing of 4BB/100 between lucky/unlucky on just 8 hands in 5000.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouted loudly - SAMPLE SIZE!

You cannot possibly get a clue as to how good/bad you are from so few hands. Even at 20,000 hands you are only getting a warmish approximation to the longer run.

Really, at 5k hands you'll have played about 1,200 hands. If you lost/won in big pots on just 10 of those hands against the odds, it'll skew your data horribly.

eg win 8 +20BB pots in the 5000 hands where you were lucky = +160BB or 160BB/5000 = ~3BB/100 whereas if you had lost them, say 8 -6BB pots = ~50BB/5000 or -1BB/100. That's a possible swing of 4BB/100 between lucky/unlucky on just 8 hands in 5000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is why I'm just really commenting on his VP$IP/ PFR%. I think these are things that you can definitely start to get an idea of after 5k hands.

So I played a few hundred hands the other day (1/2 4-6 ppl), trying to track my tenedencies, and so I followed the chart for preflop. The table was generally filled with callers. The problem I found was that even if I raise, and with a few callers (say 2), i would miss the flop and not have anything to back it up except for overcard draws, etc. Over time I would be paying a lot to see these flops, and keep missing - and folding if shown aggression. I'm not sure if this was just because it was a small sample size or what, because even when i did hit, it usually didn't occur frequently enough, nor pay enough to cover all the raises preflop.

Just my 2 cents.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
So I played a few hundred hands the other day (1/2 4-6 ppl), trying to track my tenedencies, and so I followed the chart for preflop. The table was generally filled with callers. The problem I found was that even if I raise, and with a few callers (say 2), i would miss the flop and not have anything to back it up except for overcard draws, etc. Over time I would be paying a lot to see these flops, and keep missing - and folding if shown aggression. I'm not sure if this was just because it was a small sample size or what, because even when i did hit, it usually didn't occur frequently enough, nor pay enough to cover all the raises preflop.

Just my 2 cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Postflop play is more important than preflop play. You need to read those books we told you about. SSHE by Miller, or the Lee Jones book would be a good start.

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
So I played a few hundred hands the other day

[/ QUOTE ]

Inadequate sample size. This won't tell you much. A couple hundred hands is about a 3-hour session; my typical results are -20 to +30 BB over this period. This is enough hands to get each of AA, KK, and QQ once each. Maybe you got them extra times; maybe you lost each time. The swings here are going to be obvious with these powerhouse hands. I had one three-hour session tonight where I lost KK to AA twice. Rare, sure, but sometimes I'll lose KK to A7o, or AQs, or whatever. Premium hands are so rare, it should be obvious that it's going to take dozens (or hundreds) of them before your results start to settle out to something close to expected.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I found was that even if I raise, and with a few callers (say 2), i would miss the flop and not have anything to back it up except for overcard draws, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before the flop, who is more likely to win -- AQo, or A7o, Q8o, 86s, K2s, or 22? AQo is way ahead of everything but the 22, and unless he hits trips most likely he'll fold on the flop. You have much more pot equity than the table average. If you raise from EP or MP and get it 2- or 3-handed, chances are those guys have stuff on the crappy end of the range -- 86s, Q8o, and the like. They play crap and they call two cold with it.

Yeah, sometimes one of them has KK and you don't hit your ace, or he hits his backdoor flush draw or inside straight draw or even his Q5o hits another five. You hit a bit more often than they do (mostly because they're more likely to play offsuit A-crap or K-crap), but the big difference is when you both hit -- you'll be ahead, and he need to hit again to win.

If you don't want their money you don't have to take it -- but you are more likely to win than they are. You have more equity than they do.

Raise preflop.