is it possible to win consistently without ICM?

[sng-sam]

I have been struggling with ICM. Mostly I have a hard time creating a range of hands that I might be called with in a given situation. Now either I have to get there because I can't survive without it or I can compensate elsewhere. My guess correct me please, is that once you get to a certain buy in it becomes absolutely neccessary. I remember raptor saying once that 215's were highly beatable with what he called "perfect icm"

SAM

[ChuckNorris]

Of course it isn't absolutely necessary. Not every winning player at party sit'n'gos (not to mention all the other STT's played in other web and irl casinos around the world) is a 2+2'er. But you do need to be able to estimate hand ranges for your opponents whatever the form of poker is you play. Just keep reading the forum and playing tournies. It comes with experiment.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been struggling with ICM. Mostly I have a hard time creating a range of hands that I might be called with in a given situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to your question is, of course, "yes."

However, even if you don't know a lick about ICM, not knowing what you are likely to be called by is still a problem. This is something that matters independently of any knowledge or use of ICM.

eastbay

[morgan180]

when you are only playing your cards you are only playing half the game (if you're lucky)

edit: that's not a sarcastic comment - that's a self realization that i am still working very hard to fix. which reminds me - i need to buy eastbay's program /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jacket34]

this may be dumb, but i could not find icm in the abbrev. section. what does it stand for, and what is it? thanks.

[morgan180]

independent chip model

linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1122239&page=8&view=c ollapsed&sb=7&o=93&fpart=1)

[Matt R.]

ICM (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.html)

[durron597]

I don't have SnGPT, though if I did I probably would think about ICM more.

After reading this forum a lot and performing ICM calcs I like to think I have a good gut for guessing ICM results on the fly, and I'm sure the best players on here have an even better gut than I do.

So yes, I use ICM, but more instinctually than with a pen and paper.

[freemoney]

i have been successful at high levels and have never used the ICM or SNG PowerTools yet i still think its important to understand some concepts that apply to them.

[iMsoLucky0]

What's ICM?

[citanul]

it is not necessary to understand icm or have the power tools to win. when raptor said what he said he was basically saying you can win by being a perfect push and call bot. which he was defining as the "mathematically correct" plays in short stacked large blinds situations.

knowledge of the basic underlying facts that drive icm and the power tools are what is most important:

1) being alive late in the game is important
2) folding equity is worth a lot in terms of chips late in the game
3) because folding equity is so important and valuable, calling is almost always wrong, since when you lose having called, you'll lose the ability to make people fold
4) the bubble is real important
5) having a very short stack in the game makes folding even more right in situations where calling would maybe look ok
6) having loads of chips is awesome

citanul

[The Don]

You would be suprised. I have gone through 775 $22s this month (first month I have kept stats) and my results have been off the charts. I have no knowledge of ICM and I use a approach which is a bit different from "2+2 strategy". I'll post by the end of the week once I reach 1000.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
knowledge of the basic underlying facts that drive icm and the power tools are what is most important:

1) being alive late in the game is important
2) folding equity is worth a lot in terms of chips late in the game
3) because folding equity is so important and valuable, calling is almost always wrong, since when you lose having called, you'll lose the ability to make people fold
4) the bubble is real important
5) having a very short stack in the game makes folding even more right in situations where calling would maybe look ok
6) having loads of chips is awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

Great synopsis, Citanul. This basically describes 90% of my SNG "game" in a nutshell. At this point, I consider myself a so-so "poker player" but a very good "tournament strategy player" (for my level of play at least). The latter category is far more important for SNG success and almost by itself can account for +ROIs, at least up until a certain buy-in.

This is why I'm willing to play a style that is often accused of being weak/tight early in games in marginal situations. Your typical player (and I can only speak of 22s and below) is so ignorant of the 6 factors you listed that long term success against them is guaranteed if you have a strong base of knowledge in those areas.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
You would be suprised. I have gone through 775 $22s this month (first month I have kept stats) and my results have been off the charts. I have no knowledge of ICM and I use a approach which is a bit different from "2+2 strategy". I'll post by the end of the week once I reach 1000.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also played for years without ICM and was totally happy with my reults. I also diverge from the "2+2 dogma" in many situations.

I finally bought Eastbays tool a few weeks ago and hardly ever use it. I reviewed a half a dozen HHs with it and found that my "gut" was telling me pretty much what ICM tells me. Now, i find that the situations that are so borderline that i dont know if i should have push/folded are "push" if i set opponents hand range at "average" and "fold" if i put them on a "loose" range.

Now, i dont want to come off all cocky here, i for sure have holes in my game, just not ones that a "push/fold bot" helps with.

To directly answer OP...yes it is possible to win without ICM.

If player A goes into level 4 with t900 on average, and play perfect push/fold poker, and Player B goes into every bubble with t1100, and play pretty damn good (but not perfect) push/fold poker...Player B will still have better ROI.

Of course, Player C that goes in with t1100 on average, AND plays perfect ICM pushbot...he will crush them both /images/graemlins/smile.gif

BL' - more of a player B, future goal to be player C /images/graemlins/wink.gif