hand with FieryJustice

[curtains]

Please note the comment at the end, it's as though he learned to play sit and gos yesterday or something. Everytime a 2+2er makes some kind of insulting or ignorant comment after a hand with me I'm going to post it here.

Sorry for my immaturatity, but it's really so stupid. It's obvious that I should push with Q2s in the SB and he knows it too, so I see no reason why he has to make an obnoxious comment after the hand.




***** Hand History for Game 2424187930 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:14258456 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Monday, July 25, 21:40:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 18893 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 6: FieryJustice ( $1380 )
Seat 8: tbradley77 ( $2330 )
Seat 2: Curtains_4_U ( $1830 )
Seat 7: LittleMolly ( $1310 )
Seat 9: DabbaYabbaDo ( $3150 )
Trny:14258456 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Curtains_4_U [ 2s Qs ]
LittleMolly folds.
tbradley77 folds.
DabbaYabbaDo folds.
Curtains_4_U raises [1300].
FieryJustice is all-In [1180]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, 5s, 9s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
Curtains_4_U shows [ 2s, Qs ] a flush, queen high.
FieryJustice shows [ 3s, 3h ] a straight, three to seven.
Curtains_4_U wins 20 chips from side pot #1 with a flush, queen high.
Curtains_4_U wins 2760 chips from the main pot with a flush, queen high.
FieryJustice finished in fifth place.
FieryJustice has left the table.

FieryJustice: very skillful

[morgan180]

maybe he should change his name to FireyIgnorance???

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

FieryJustice shows [ 3s, 3h ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahhaha.

[curtains]

Well its an obvious allin by me and an obvious call by him.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

FieryJustice shows [ 3s, 3h ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahhaha.

[/ QUOTE ]

he has to call here - it would be more funny/wrong if he folded these face up.

[raptor517]

i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[FieryJustice]

i called because i had no chips and I said very skillful because it was you.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

raptor you're supposed to finish that with a "do you see why?"

[morgan180]

raptor - can you explain a little bit? knowing that curtains would push with nearly any 2 aren't you a big favorite here the majority of the time? or would you wait for something that had high card value instead?

[The Don]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Strongly disagree. At the 215s, I like this call (especially versus curtains) because it sends a message to all of the other regulars that they should tighten up their pushing ranges when he is in the BB. At any other level I would say it was a bad call.

Also, I think he was just joking around with his "very skillful". /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[astarck]

Big favorite?

33 isn't exactly a dominating hand.

Edit - Keep in mind I'm not saying the call was good/bad. I'm just saying 33 isn't a monster.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

No way, this is a pretty easy call, are you joking or something?

If so, I don't get it?!? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[curtains]

The call actually isnt that easy....I think I was wrong . My girlfriend is somehow upset that I used 4 dots up above instead of 3. I hope you all can forgive me.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]

The call actually isnt that easy....I think I was wrong . My girlfriend is somehow upset that I used 4 dots up above instead of 3. I hope you all can forgive me.

[/ QUOTE ]

quick EDIT!! you are hurting my eyes.

[raptor517]

are YOU the one joking apathy? i can see someone calling, but i fold that about oh, 97.3485989% of the time, and i dont think its really that close.. holla

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

raptor you're supposed to finish that with a "do you see why?"

[/ QUOTE ]

These are my thoughts, and are just opinion, so please don't think I am saying this is fact:

Fold, and steal it back next hand.

You are essentially a coinflip here, unless Curtains has 22.

I pass on a mildly +EV coinflip play if doing so means I will have chance to make a much higher +EV play on next hand, regardless of the cards dealt.

[SCfuji]

if you get comments from 2+2ers, dont you get comments from players that are just plain bewildered by the hands you push? i think those comments are even worse. im down at the 22s and ppl all the time keep telling me:

"keep doing that"
"dont know how to play poker?"
"hey it's mr. all-in" (this one is my favorite)
"you're gonna get caught"

the last one probably bothers me the most. like what they say is actually going to deter me from going all-in or not.

the fools!

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

raptor you're supposed to finish that with a "do you see why?"

[/ QUOTE ]

These are my thoughts, and are just opinion, so please don't think I am saying this is fact:

Fold, and steal it back next hand.

You are essentially a coinflip here, unless Curtains has 22.

I pass on a mildly +EV coinflip play if doing so means I will have chance to make a much higher +EV play on next hand, regardless of the cards dealt.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding when you would have a 50% chance of winning a showdown is quite bad in this situation.

[SCfuji]

is this because you can fold this almost guaranteed race and take a bigger gamble with the next hand you get by either calling a push or open pushing out of the small blind? or if worse comes to worse you will have to fold your sb and play 1k off the button and steal with any 2 from there and that these other scenarios give you better odds than calling with 33?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

raptor you're supposed to finish that with a "do you see why?"

[/ QUOTE ]

These are my thoughts, and are just opinion, so please don't think I am saying this is fact:

Fold, and steal it back next hand.

You are essentially a coinflip here, unless Curtains has 22.

I pass on a mildly +EV coinflip play if doing so means I will have chance to make a much higher +EV play on next hand, regardless of the cards dealt.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding when you would have a 50% chance of winning a showdown is quite bad in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

what EXACT percentage is 33 against any 2? also, apathy, i think you overvalue this situation. calling with 33 here is simply wrong imo. holla

[curtains]

Anyway Ive pretty much solved the hand assuming the entire field plays perfectly. The SB should push with about the top 72-75% of hands which are:

22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T4o+,T2s+,95o+,93s+,86o+,84s+, 75s+,65s

whereas the BB should call with about the top 33% of hands which are:

Call hands: 33+,A2+,K7o+,K4s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,JTo,J9s+ (33%)


Notice the above range doesnt include 22. This was done using eastbays program of course. I had some trouble solving it exactly but I believe the numbers above are pretty close.

33 is only +.2 EV against the pushing range listed above. If it gets a bit tighter, which is obviously possible, then folding becomes correct. What's also funny is the huge difference between 33 and 22. 22 is a huge underdog against this range to the tune of -.4% EV.

So in conclusion this was much closer than I originally stated and others as well. Note also that calling with 22 is slightly - EV if the SB pushes any 2, whereas calling with 33 against any 2 is +1% EV, so there is a very signifigant difference between the two hands. It's rare that anyone thinks of 33 as much stronger than 22, but this seems to be a case.

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]
if you get comments from 2+2ers, dont you get comments from players that are just plain bewildered by the hands you push? i think those comments are even worse. im down at the 22s and ppl all the time keep telling me:

"keep doing that"
"dont know how to play poker?"
"hey it's mr. all-in" (this one is my favorite)
"you're gonna get caught"

the last one probably bothers me the most. like what they say is actually going to deter me from going all-in or not.



[/ QUOTE ]

how about these?

"one trick pony"
"over betting monkey"

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway Ive pretty much solved the hand assuming the entire field plays perfectly. The SB should push with about the top 72-75% of hands which are:

22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T4o+,T2s+,95o+,93s+,86o+,84s+, 75s+,65s

whereas the BB should call with about the top 33% of hands which are:

Call hands: 33+,A2+,K7o+,K4s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,JTo,J9s+ (33%)


Notice the above range doesnt include 22. This was done using eastbays program of course. I had some trouble solving it exactly but I believe the numbers above are pretty close.

33 is only +.2 EV against the pushing range listed above. If it gets a bit tighter, which is obviously possible, then folding becomes correct. What's also funny is the huge difference between 33 and 22. 22 is a huge underdog against this range to the tune of -.4% EV.

So in conclusion this was much closer than I originally stated and others as well. Note also that calling with 22 is slightly - EV if the SB pushes any 2, whereas calling with 33 against any 2 is +1% EV, so there is a very signifigant difference between the two hands. It's rare that anyone thinks of 33 as much stronger than 22, but this seems to be a case.

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains im shoving Q2s there too, and yes, imo 33 is quite a bit stronger than 22. much more than most people realize.. however, those calling ranges are atrociously loose.. if you honestly call with J9s i have to SERIOUSLY relook at my game.. holla

[Mr_J]

"what EXACT percentage is 33 against any 2"

54.5% and 1180 to call with 1580 in the pot.

[curtains]

raptor these calculations are only from a theoretical viewpoint where you are playing in a game where everyone involved plays perfectly and the only choices for the SB in this hand are to push or fold.

Your opponents wont be as likely to push with weak hands in the SB, so it's often best to err on the side of caution and of course fold J9s.

[ClaytonN]

I called a guy named FriedPhish a damned hippie stoner when he did the same thing to my ATs with Q6o. That's about as far as I'll go though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway Ive pretty much solved the hand assuming the entire field plays perfectly. The SB should push with about the top 72-75% of hands which are:

22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T4o+,T2s+,95o+,93s+,86o+,84s+, 75s+,65s

whereas the BB should call with about the top 33% of hands which are:

Call hands: 33+,A2+,K7o+,K4s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,JTo,J9s+ (33%)


Notice the above range doesnt include 22. This was done using eastbays program of course. I had some trouble solving it exactly but I believe the numbers above are pretty close.

33 is only +.2 EV against the pushing range listed above. If it gets a bit tighter, which is obviously possible, then folding becomes correct. What's also funny is the huge difference between 33 and 22. 22 is a huge underdog against this range to the tune of -.4% EV.

So in conclusion this was much closer than I originally stated and others as well. Note also that calling with 22 is slightly - EV if the SB pushes any 2, whereas calling with 33 against any 2 is +1% EV, so there is a very signifigant difference between the two hands. It's rare that anyone thinks of 33 as much stronger than 22, but this seems to be a case.

[/ QUOTE ]

This part is the highlight of the post... " If it gets a bit tighter, which is obviously possible, then folding becomes correct. " I know for sure I'm probably not pushing that wide in the SB so if that call was made against me it's most surely -EV. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Nice analysis curtains.

[curtains]

btw we all know Usher pushes any 2 there is trying to improve his rep. Ill call usher with 32s there because I know hes offsuit.

[SCfuji]

havent heard those yet. im sure ill run across some soon. i just wish i knew who the regular 2+2ers were in the 22s.

[Apathy]

So it is close... but a call certaintly against curtains range.

Plus I really like this spot to gamble in the tournament with the way chip positions are right now, I like it even more if the blinds raise soon.

Meaning that I would 'add' a few points to the power tools calculations.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
btw we all know Usher pushes any 2 there is trying to improve his rep. Ill call usher with 32s there because I know hes offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The funny thing here is if I were the BB in this situation you'd probably tighten up a bit since you know I'll make those ugly calls against you. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
btw we all know Usher pushes any 2 there is trying to improve his rep. Ill call usher with 32s there because I know hes offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think calling with 23s there is too loose against usher. sometimes he has a powerhouse like 36s, so i only call with 64o+, 72+. holla

[curtains]

No, he min raises with those other hands to suck you in. If he pushes there he has 32o exactly.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]

No, he min raises with those other hands to suck you in. If he pushes there he has 32o exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

bah, yer right. i stand corrected. ill start calling with 52s+ now also. and i guess 42o, just to mix it up. holla

[KingDan]

Do you really start making calls with hands like k4s here?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really start making calls with hands like k4s here?

[/ QUOTE ]

well im sure on a crazy day he would.. K4s im autofolding every time and its not close at all what my decision would be.. curtains was speaking in theoretical terms. holla

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

No, he min raises with those other hands to suck you in. If he pushes there he has 32o exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

bah, yer right. i stand corrected. ill start calling with 52s+ now also. and i guess 42o, just to mix it up. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are insane. Give me a little credit here and say 2.5xBB instead of mini-raise. /images/graemlins/mad.gif Just for that I'm gonna start pushing into you two more...

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

No, he min raises with those other hands to suck you in. If he pushes there he has 32o exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

bah, yer right. i stand corrected. ill start calling with 52s+ now also. and i guess 42o, just to mix it up. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are insane. Give me a little credit here and say 2.5xBB instead of mini-raise. /images/graemlins/mad.gif Just for that I'm gonna start pushing into you two more...

[/ QUOTE ]

its on. get ready to be called. holla

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
are YOU the one joking apathy? i can see someone calling, but i fold that about oh, 97.3485989% of the time, and i dont think its really that close.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

uhhh, against a guy you know is pushing any two i'd say this is at least a call i'd consider making

tho i'd feel a lot better with KT or 66 as 33 doesn't stand too much of a chance of being ahead (got lucky here, curtains happened to have a 2.)


o and curtains i'm with you that people shouldn't be making dumb comments to the fish...but he very clearly knew this was you and i don't think that comment would have irked you if you could have heard the tone of his voice...i doubt he meant this how you took it.

[iMsoLucky0]

[ QUOTE ]

Please note the comment at the end, it's as though he learned to play sit and gos yesterday or something. Everytime a 2+2er makes some kind of insulting or ignorant comment after a hand with me I'm going to post it here.

Sorry for my immaturatity, but it's really so stupid. It's obvious that I should push with Q2s in the SB and he knows it too, so I see no reason why he has to make an obnoxious comment after the hand.




***** Hand History for Game 2424187930 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:14258456 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Monday, July 25, 21:40:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 18893 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 6: FieryJustice ( $1380 )
Seat 8: tbradley77 ( $2330 )
Seat 2: Curtains_4_U ( $1830 )
Seat 7: LittleMolly ( $1310 )
Seat 9: DabbaYabbaDo ( $3150 )
Trny:14258456 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Curtains_4_U [ 2s Qs ]
LittleMolly folds.
tbradley77 folds.
DabbaYabbaDo folds.
Curtains_4_U raises [1300].
FieryJustice is all-In [1180]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, 5s, 9s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
Curtains_4_U shows [ 2s, Qs ] a flush, queen high.
FieryJustice shows [ 3s, 3h ] a straight, three to seven.
Curtains_4_U wins 20 chips from side pot #1 with a flush, queen high.
Curtains_4_U wins 2760 chips from the main pot with a flush, queen high.
FieryJustice finished in fifth place.
FieryJustice has left the table.

FieryJustice: very skillful

[/ QUOTE ]

In this context, I don't think the comment was either ignorant or insulting.

I make comments like this all the time to people I know when they suck out on me. I do it in a joking fashion and I would hope that they knew it.

I'll say "wow, well played" or "you play so good" anytime I lose with a hand I should've won or if something sick happens. I do not mean it in an insulting way at all, and from talking with fieryjustice quite a bit, I would say he was probably just joking in a semimean sort of way here.

[citanul]

i know you know this but 33 is ahead of the hands that don't have 2s in them to.

citanul

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the 33 call is VERY bad. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]

Please note the comment at the end, it's as though he learned to play sit and gos yesterday or something. Everytime a 2+2er makes some kind of insulting or ignorant comment after a hand with me I'm going to post it here.

Sorry for my immaturatity, but it's really so stupid. It's obvious that I should push with Q2s in the SB and he knows it too, so I see no reason why he has to make an obnoxious comment after the hand.




***** Hand History for Game 2424187930 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:14258456 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Monday, July 25, 21:40:11 EDT 2005
Table Table 18893 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 6: FieryJustice ( $1380 )
Seat 8: tbradley77 ( $2330 )
Seat 2: Curtains_4_U ( $1830 )
Seat 7: LittleMolly ( $1310 )
Seat 9: DabbaYabbaDo ( $3150 )
Trny:14258456 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Curtains_4_U [ 2s Qs ]
LittleMolly folds.
tbradley77 folds.
DabbaYabbaDo folds.
Curtains_4_U raises [1300].
FieryJustice is all-In [1180]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, 5s, 9s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
Curtains_4_U shows [ 2s, Qs ] a flush, queen high.
FieryJustice shows [ 3s, 3h ] a straight, three to seven.
Curtains_4_U wins 20 chips from side pot #1 with a flush, queen high.
Curtains_4_U wins 2760 chips from the main pot with a flush, queen high.
FieryJustice finished in fifth place.
FieryJustice has left the table.

FieryJustice: very skillful

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see nothing ignorant or insulting about what he said at all. if anything, you're the one that's coming off ignorant and insulting--- not to mention, by your own words, immature. talk about obnoxious! it's lovely how when you came out on top with the winner in all this that you want to gloat about it by posting it in these forums. forgive me if i don't slide back the curtains on this one, especially when i have Venetician blinds.

[bluefeet]

[min-hijack]

55+5
1st hand HU
600/1200 blinds
villian 7k'ish
hero 6k'ish

villian pushes from SB
hero dealt 33

?

[curtains]

Okay the point is that everytime I see him bust from a sit and go he calls someone a lucky fish ^@^#& or something. After seeing this over and over every single day, it's hard for me to believe he was just kidding around in this case.

[bluewilde]

Hmmm...not relevant to all the above chit, but in response to blue's hijack:

I think pushing 33/44 short-handed after a few folds, or heads up in the SB is a solid moves, but I don't like calling with it. Maybe you're in a rare situation where you're a decent favorite, maybe you're dominated, but most often, it's about 55% to you. I think by calling an all-in with one of these pairs your saying a) you don't have enough chips to fight it out on your own terms, so you're taking a shot where you're probably a slight favorite or b) you can't outplay the other guy, so you'll take your chances on a 55% favorite. In the Fireyjustice hand, he says he was short on chips and felt pressured to call (motivation a), in your post, bluefeet, you're not shortstacked, so unless you doubt your ability to outplay the villain on your own terms, I fold.

Edit: i.e. calling all-in with one of these low pairs is best if you think your less than a 55% favorite to do otherwise (either by stack issues or issues of ability)

[FieryJustice]

Its also hard for me to believe that you are a sad little man that gets upset when someone lets you know you are skilled. If i was "skilled" like you, I would be very very rich. Maybe one day you can teach me to win with 3 outers every time you get them.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Its also hard for me to believe that you are a sad little man that gets upset when someone lets you know you are skilled. If i was "skilled" like you, I would be very very rich. Maybe one day you can teach me to win with 3 outers every time you get them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, what a whiny little bitch

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay the point is that everytime I see him bust from a sit and go he calls someone a lucky fish ^@^#& or something. After seeing this over and over every single day, it's hard for me to believe he was just kidding around in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

and what do you care if he was or was'nt? i mean, really! what are you, judge and jury or something? ok, you decide to take a stand, "i'm not gonna let this slide any longer, i'm gonna stand up for what's right and teach Fiery to never ever make disparaging remarks against lucky catches anymore from this day foward!" what perfect way to do it by broadcasting a that play that reeks of Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes Eau du Toilette .

[morgan180]

if the villian is strong - and better than me i will take this coin flip as the slight favorite. if i know i'm better than the villian i will fold and fight it out.

[FieryJustice]

All I do is point out the obvious.

[bluewilde]

[ QUOTE ]
if the villian is strong - and better than me i will take this coin flip as the slight favorite. if i know i'm better than the villian i will fold and fight it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what he said. I'm long-winded and often mess up what I'm trying to say /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
All I do is point out the obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

just like i'm sure curtains feels he's pointing out something so obvious by pushing 1800 chips all-in with Q2 suited to win a 300 pot.

[Oluwafemi]

no Gigabetese dissertation threads on using Lego blocks and Hot Wheels tracks when trying to justify making this play. a simple, "i pushed with crap, i got lucky", will suffice.

[Matt R.]

curtains,
I don't own sngpt so this may be obvious, but how do you get an exact "optimum" push range (theoretically) if you don't know or estimate the BB's call range first? I always thought that your range for pushing is completely dependent on the hands you expect to get called with, so I'm unclear on how you came up with a push range independent of the call range.

Edit -- and vice versa... basically I'm wondering how you came up with an optimum range for both without picking at least one "push" or "call" range first.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
no Gigabetese dissertation threads on using Lego blocks and Hot Wheels tracks when trying to justify making this play. a simple, "i pushed with crap, i got lucky", will suffice.

[/ QUOTE ]

His play there is pretty standard. He can defend himself more adeptly than I can but between the call and the push the call is more suspect.

[Matt R.]

Either you're still joking, or you're missing some fundamental understanding on how tournament poker works. I find the latter hard to believe since you're playing the $215's (but I guess someone has to be giving curtains money). If you do understand that curtains made the correct play here, do you see why that makes you a "whiney little bitch", as someone else on here put it?

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
[min-hijack]

55+5
1st hand HU
600/1200 blinds
villian 7k'ish
hero 6k'ish

villian pushes from SB
hero dealt 33

?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to put in 4800ish to win 7200ish.

It's a call unless he is horrifically tight.

In the original hand, OOTM as opposed to HU, 6.5BBs as opposed to 5, it is only a call if the pusher is very loose, which, of course, he was.

[bluewilde]

wow totally zonked on the blinds in this hand. My answer still stands above, but here it falls into that motivation c) you're not shortstacked, you're not outmatched, but you don't have time to outplay the other guy. My bad, with blinds as they are this is insta-call.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

33 is only +.2 EV against the pushing range listed above. If it gets a bit tighter, which is obviously possible, then folding becomes correct. What's also funny is the huge difference between 33 and 22. 22 is a huge underdog against this range to the tune of -.4% EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these fractions of a percent of EV really a big deal? I mean, they are *so small*.

I am of the opinion that this decision is close enough (to call with 33, not push with Q2s) that it doesn't really matter what you do except maybe for metagame reasons.

So it's probably correct for FieryJustice to call so that maybe curtains won't rape his blinds so much anymore.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
curtains,
I don't own sngpt so this may be obvious, but how do you get an exact "optimum" push range (theoretically) if you don't know or estimate the BB's call range first? I always thought that your range for pushing is completely dependent on the hands you expect to get called with, so I'm unclear on how you came up with a push range independent of the call range.

Edit -- and vice versa... basically I'm wondering how you came up with an optimum range for both without picking at least one "push" or "call" range first.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's using "optimum" in the game theory sense here.

Think of it this way: the two players are going to play this hand over and over again. Each is armed with an ICM calculator. They each make an assumption about the other and determine their best push/call range against that assumption that makes them the most EV. Over time, they each see that their assumption was a little tighter or looser than what the other player is actually doing, so they adjust to it to gain maximum edge for their new estimate of what the other guy is doing. As this process continues, both players will slowly move towards two ranges, neither of which allow the other to gain any more edge by unilaterally adjusting any more. They're stuck. It's a stalemate, at least as much as possible with the position advantage, etc.

This is the "optimal" pair of ranges. The trick to finding it is to find the pair of ranges for which even if each player knew exactly what the other was doing, they would not adjust. Doing this in SnGPT is a matter of making a couple of guesses, and honing in on the pair of ranges for which this works out. So, you do pick a range to start the process, but it's just an educated guess at the right answer, and whatever you pick to start is irrelevant to the final solution for the "optimal" pair.

eastbay

[Oluwafemi]

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no Gigabetese dissertation threads on using Lego blocks and Hot Wheels tracks when trying to justify making this play. a simple, "i pushed with crap, i got lucky", will suffice.

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His play there is pretty standard. He can defend himself more adeptly than I can but between the call and the push the call is more suspect.

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a simple, "i pushed with crap, i got lucky", will suffice.

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had he got called by Ax or Kx suited and lost, i doubt this hand and Fiery's comment ever sees the light of day in these forums. i'm not too overly concerned with how adeptly curtains can defend himself on this play, especially while trying to use it as a reason to show up and chastise another player.

[citanul]

if anyone wants to talk about the strategy of this hand further, start a new thread. i'm sorry that there are open strategy questions in here, but this is just the way it has to be.

flame wars will not be tolerated.

my opinion on the hand:

good push, good call. the berating was not earnest. berating fish is not cool. berating other regulars, particularly ones who are 2+2ers is cool. these threads are not cool.

citanul