donkdonkdonkdonk

[BottlesOf]

opponent is largely unknown, he had been doing some cold calling....i had been raising a fair amount, but not appearing maniacal...

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

[sfer]

Bet the flop.

[BottlesOf]

explain the pros of that vs. what i did, or other possible lines.

[sfer]

He's never capping the turn with a worse hand but he'll sometimes go 2 flop bets and 3 turn bets with a worse hand if he's aggressive enough.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
He's never capping the turn with a worse hand but he'll sometimes go 2 flop bets and 3 turn bets with a worse hand if he's aggressive enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BottlesOf]

I don't think many are that aggressive, this guy was an unknown with a slight penchant for cold calling. Something to think about though...

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think many are that aggressive, this guy was an unknown with a slight penchant for cold calling. Something to think about though...

[/ QUOTE ]

I just see alot of people freeze up on the turn when you play it this way.

And also, if he doesnt have a big pair, he prolly isnt raising your turn bet with AK or AQ. But he raises the flop with those hands, because he wont give you credit for a jack, and PFR like to raise donk bets. So if hes got nothing you make an extra SB, and if he does have a hand, the turn often still plays the same way, so you still make an extra SB.

I think often times when someone gets the "this guy is full of [censored]" read, its hard for them to change it. You betting the flop gives him that read

[sfer]

Excellent post.

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent post.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BottlesOf]

I don't quite follow. What line are you advocating?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite follow. What line are you advocating?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet-call, bet-3bet, bet. I use this line a lot against aggressive players.

Rob

[BottlesOf]

If 1 bet goes in on the flop and then 1 or 3 depending on whether or not he has an overpair goes in on the turn, I'm not seenig why betting the flop is better.

Edit: Is it that IF he has only overs, I might get 2 in on the flop by betting, wheras I'd get one by c/calling, and I'd get 1 on the turn and 0/1 on the river regardless of my flop action, so I net an extra sb?

Although, I do think betting the flop as opposed to c/calling, makes him less likely to raise an overpair on the turn... we'd need to do some Bayes and assign som percentages to fully see this through...

[sfer]

Your line lets him make a mistake on one street. The bet/call/bet/3-bet lets him make a mistake on 2-streets. That's the only real difference.

[wheelz]

How often are you guys donkbetting a flop after calling a preflop raise? And how often is it with a strong hand?

[jfresh]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

only briefly browsed the other responses,

i think you need a read that the opponent is somewhat of an overaggressive chipspewer to work bet/call/bet/3bet. you bet the flop then donk the turn, most *reasonable* people will probably slow down with AK, AQ, small pairs, maybe even high pairs.

donking the turn (without donking the flop) just looks like a desperate attempt at the pot, and aggros will raise you right away with almost nothing.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

only briefly browsed the other responses,

i think you need a read that the opponent is somewhat of an overaggressive chipspewer to work bet/call/bet/3bet. you bet the flop then donk the turn, most *reasonable* people will probably slow down with AK, AQ, small pairs, maybe even high pairs.

donking the turn (without donking the flop) just looks like a desperate attempt at the pot, and aggros will raise you right away with almost nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think someone who will raise that board on the turn with unimproved AK is almost always raising both streets with AA/KK/QQ.

[jfresh]

i agree 100%. but i think, by giving up that SB by bet/call-ing on the flop, you get a higher chance of bet/3betting the turn. obviously if the opponent is a maniac, you need to do bet/call/bet/3bet, but since this one is "largely unknown", i think you need to give him a little benefit of the doubt... donking twice into a preflop 3bettor on a JJ46 board should raise flags with most people. especially if your table image is pretty reasonable.

[NLSoldier]

I like your line. If there was a player in between, donking the flop becomes the obvious play. But HU i think this line will consistently win you the most. Reason being that I think he will almost always go to SD with AK/AQ after you donk the turn, and he will sometimes get away from them if you donk the flop. Also, I don't think a raise on the turn is guranteed if you bet/call and then bet. Alot of players have startd to catch on to this line and will just call down even with big pairs.

[PokerBob]

i like a flop c/r, as it smells weak. i'm guessing he'd pop your turn lead and then you can cream him

[poker-penguin]

Now that's an interesting line Bob.

I think I like it, because in many people's minds there's no way you CR when you have the goods. Following it with the donk bet screams a desperate "please get out of this pot".

You lose three BB when the guy does give you credit for a J and folds, but really, how often does that happen? You usually squeeze another 0.5 bet out of it - unless he just goes into his shell after the CR and calls the turn and river, in which case you miss out on a couple bets, but again, who does that?

[J. Sawyer]

I dont like donk betting unknowns..

If hes aggro.. yeah this is a great line.

But too many unkowns will simply call the turn bet..

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your line. If there was a player in between, donking the flop becomes the obvious play. But HU i think this line will consistently win you the most. Reason being that I think he will almost always go to SD with AK/AQ after you donk the turn, and he will sometimes get away from them if you donk the flop. Also, I don't think a raise on the turn is guranteed if you bet/call and then bet. Alot of players have startd to catch on to this line and will just call down even with big pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this post as I am also much in favor of the check/call donkbet line.

[Klepton]

there are a lot of good posts in this thread

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
i like a flop c/r, as it smells weak. i'm guessing he'd pop your turn lead and then you can cream him

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. The whole time i was reading this post I was wondering why no one had brought this up. A flop donk bet is such a common line for a clever jack to take. The flop checkraise says "look at my pocket eights" and gets sooo much more value off overpairs.