A tough game collision

[ShawnHoo]

I observed the following hand Friday night at Commerce. It took place in a 40/80 game that was unusually tough by SoCal standards. How well/poorly did each player play their hand? I'd be interested to hear how folks would have played differently in the respective situations.

UTG, an extremely solid regular, raises with QQ. Folded around to button, who doesn't play many hands and apparently doesn't recognize UTG as extremely solid, who flat calls with AdQh. SB calls, BB calls with KTo. BB is a young pro who is exceptional at hand-reading.

Flop: QdTdTh

SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, button calls, SB folds.

Turn: 6h

BB bets, UTG calls, button raises, BB shows his hand to the SB and folds, UTG 3-bets, button calls.

River: blank

UTG bets and is called.

[ike]

BB's turn fold is extremely bad. His preflop call is pretty questionable too.
UTG played perfectly.
Button should probably have folded preflop but otherwise played fine.

[elindauer]

BB should have lost at least one more BB. If he calls the turn and UTG 3-bets, now I can imagine a good hand reader finding a fold. On the other hand, UTG could have AK, so a 3-bet from the BB would be totally reasonable.

Button played it reasonably, I'd say. 3-betting and folding preflop are all reasonable. Waiting for the turn to raise his TPTK let him see how UTG reacted to a turn bet, and also see whether an ugly K or J hit the turn.

All told, I'd say that the guy seems to have played the best, the BB, actually played the worst and made a mistake on the turn. UTG played perfectly, with the button coming in 2nd having played his hand reasonably but missing chances to get away preflop and when UTG made the power limp-reraise on the turn.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[elindauer]

I have a rather random pat for you Shawn. I just wanted to say that I thought this was an interesting post. Don't be discouraged by the lack of replies.

Thanks,
Eric

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I observed the following hand Friday night at Commerce. It took place in a 40/80 game that was unusually tough by SoCal standards. How well/poorly did each player play their hand? I'd be interested to hear how folks would have played differently in the respective situations.

UTG, an extremely solid regular, raises with QQ. Folded around to button, who doesn't play many hands and apparently doesn't recognize UTG as extremely solid, who flat calls with AdQh. SB calls, BB calls with KTo. BB is a young pro who is exceptional at hand-reading.

Flop: QdTdTh

SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, button calls, SB folds.

Turn: 6h

BB bets, UTG calls, button raises, BB shows his hand to the SB and folds, UTG 3-bets, button calls.

River: blank

UTG bets and is called.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting post...

I think the BB played the hand poorly from a purely statistical matter, but layed his 2nd best hand down at the appropriate time. It is hard for me to say he played the hand poorly... but yet he seems to have layed down a little too soon.

However, I think you described the game correctly in that the game was playing very tough and straight-forward. The turn is a complete brick but the button has a big enough hand that he can raise an initial raiser and another player (the BB) on the turn when an innocuous card comes on the turn... and especially when the player plays few hands...

I can see how the BB found a laydown... especially if he is as strong at hand reading as you say... I really think this kid probably made a fortune in this game. Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand. In a loose wild game like a typical SoCal game... you often have to make the best hand and that can increase your volatility.

Personally, it sounds like a great game to play IMHO!

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that games in which my opponents play poorly are much easier.

[mike l.]

both button and utg appear to play pretty poorly, particularly the button. ill have to give it some more thought.

[mike l.]

"I can see how the BB found a laydown..."

i cant and the more i think about it im suspicious that our poster mis-posted and bb actually got away on the turn after utg call-3 bet. that would make a lot more sense.

the button really stunk it up on this hand. AQo is a 3 bet or fold hand. period. clearly given poster's description it's a fold here against an utg raiser. one of the most common things you see from mediocre mid limit players is they cold call all the time with trouble hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, etc. a little too loose, a little too passive.

waiting for the turn is fine with the AQ when it comes QTT w/ a flush draw and bb is betting. the flop is good.

the turn and river payoff though are tremendously bad. call-3 bet means the nuts and nothing but, even at 40-80. terrible to not find the fold there. button plays bad.

[mike l.]

"Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays"

the toughest and easiest games i have played in share one trait: players who think their hand has any remote chance of being best never lay there hand down against any sort of "play". in the easier games the worst players just call and call and call. in the tougher games the players push back and then only when you keep raising do they finally just call down. they never fold when you want them to.

[JTG51]

If BB is really that good a hand reader, he must make about $300/hr in that game.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
If BB is really that good a hand reader, he would fold preflop .

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[URMeowed]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will always make more money off other's bad play than your own great play. It's a corollary to Sklansky's Fundemental Theory of Poker. You seek out games where you have to "rob" chips from good players. I'd rather play against donks who throw money at me. To each his own...

Meow.

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
"I can see how the BB found a laydown..."

i cant and the more i think about it im suspicious that our poster mis-posted and bb actually got away on the turn after utg call-3 bet. that would make a lot more sense.

the button really stunk it up on this hand. AQo is a 3 bet or fold hand. period. clearly given poster's description it's a fold here against an utg raiser. one of the most common things you see from mediocre mid limit players is they cold call all the time with trouble hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, etc. a little too loose, a little too passive.

waiting for the turn is fine with the AQ when it comes QTT w/ a flush draw and bb is betting. the flop is good.

the turn and river payoff though are tremendously bad. call-3 bet means the nuts and nothing but, even at 40-80. terrible to not find the fold there. button plays bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also think that the poster mis-remembered the hand. Laying KT down as originally posted is not the sign of a good hand reader, it's the sign of a weak tight player who will get run over left and right. (Maybe that's why he's in Southern CA and only playing 40/80.)

[ShawnHoo]

Appreciate the comments, everyone.

BTW, I remember for a fact that BB folded as it was described in my original post.

For those of you who play at Commerce regularly, the BB was one of the two twins who play the 40 or 100 several times a week. They're both winning players as far as I can tell.

[mike l.]

"BTW, I remember for a fact that BB folded as it was described in my original post."

okay then he's terrible too. his preflop call is garbage and his turn fold makes no sense.

as for those twin boys yeah they play okay but i do mean just okay. they definitely dont understand 2+2 theory. they get by mainly by playing tight but they dont understand even the simple concept of not cold calling with dominated hand. the laydown here of KT is inexplicably weak and makes no sense. one thought: it's quite possible utg and bb are buddies and utg sent a simple signal of some sort that he had the nuts.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will always make more money off other's bad play than your own great play. It's a corollary to Sklansky's Fundemental Theory of Poker. You seek out games where you have to "rob" chips from good players. I'd rather play against donks who throw money at me. To each his own...

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand Sklansky's take on things and he is absolutely correct... you do make more from others errors. However, when I talk about tough... TAG opponents I think I maybe mis-described the type of opponent I was talking about. What I really meant was that I like games where the opponents are very predictable and you always know whether you are ahead or behind and can play accordingly w/o having to guess.

Predictable opponents are very easy to exploit and force into making mistakes!!

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that games in which my opponents play poorly are much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

In reality, I find that opponents that play predictably are much easier to play against.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that games in which my opponents play poorly are much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

In reality, I find that opponents that play predictably are much easier to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you're calling weak-tight games tough and TAG, or you're badly wrong. Tough TAG opponents are not predictable.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
one thought: it's quite possible utg and bb are buddies and utg sent a simple signal of some sort that he had the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes a lot of sense. I don't understand how someone who makes this fold could possibly afford to play high limits in SoCal.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that games in which my opponents play poorly are much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

In reality, I find that opponents that play predictably are much easier to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you're calling weak-tight games tough and TAG, or you're badly wrong. Tough TAG opponents are not predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be correct... as the majority of my play either occurs at my home casino in KC or in St. Louis or Tunica. I find that my best success comes in KC where the game is fairly predictable but the presence of LAG's are not overly common. I find that LAG's are much harder to play against!

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that tough and TAG games are great games b/c if you can read hands you can make some great plays that really can net you a lot more profit with less variability b/c you always know where you are at in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that games in which my opponents play poorly are much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

In reality, I find that opponents that play predictably are much easier to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you're calling weak-tight games tough and TAG, or you're badly wrong. Tough TAG opponents are not predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be correct... as the majority of my play either occurs at my home casino in KC or in St. Louis or Tunica. I find that my best success comes in KC where the game is fairly predictable but the presence of LAG's are not overly common. I find that LAG's are much harder to play against!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so long as you understand that your opponents playing better is never good for your bottom line you're allowed to prefer weak-tight idiots to loose-aggressive idiots. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[golferbrent]

The more idiots the merrier... I like a nice balance of LAG idiots and tight idiots!!! LOL! Good luck at the tables!

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one thought: it's quite possible utg and bb are buddies and utg sent a simple signal of some sort that he had the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes a lot of sense. I don't understand how someone who makes this fold could possibly afford to play high limits in SoCal.

[/ QUOTE ]

What little experience I have of the CA 40/80 games indicates that it doesn't take a lot to beat that game. He really doesn't need to play all that well to be a winner there.

[ZenMusician]

[quote

You will always make more money off other's bad play than your own great play. It's a corollary to Sklansky's Fundemental Theory of Poker. You seek out games where you have to "rob" chips from good players. I'd rather play against donks who throw money at me. To each his own...

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]

WELCOME BACK!!! (please stay)

-ZEN

[URMeowed]

[ QUOTE ]
Predictable opponents are very easy to exploit and force into making mistakes!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let me clarify my statement again. YOU play against predictable opponents that can be forced into making mistakes. I'll play against the clueless who couldn't find the right play with a map. To each still his own...

Meow. =^._.^=

[URMeowed]

I was never gone...just taking a long catnap.

Meow.

[andyfox]

Not just that, but good players make mistakes. It's what keeps them (and me) from being a great player. I beat that 40-80 game but I make lots of mistakes. It's rare that I leave from a session and think I didn't make one mistake.

[andyfox]

I don't see how UTG's play can be faulted. Q-Q is a must-raise pre-flop and then he milked the dream flop for the maximum.

If BB is as good as you say, then I suppose he can get away better than most with calling an UTG raise with K-To. I beat that 40-80 game and I don't think I can show a profit doing it against a good-playing UTG's raise. The fold on the turn strikes me as terrible: the turn card was a second heart; what would he put button on, pocket 6s? A-T? He's getting 9.5:1 here, may have the best hand, and probably has outs if he doesn't.

I don't mind button's cold-call pre-flop as much as some others do. While I have always been in the pump-or-dump camp, the Commerce 40-80 game has become wilder and woolier than ever and if one didn't know UTG I think a case can be made for calling with A-Q. I wouldn't think it could be too horrific a mistake.

If it were me, though, I'd have to dump to the turn 3-bet from UTG. As mike l. says, call-3-bet is rarely anything other than a monster.