Is this stealing?

[Bulldog]

You purchase a CD, convert the tracks to MP3 and listen to them on your iPod. You sell the CD to a music store that will resell it. You do not delete the MP3s from your computer and iPod.

[AllIn3High]

It's no better/worse than just downloading the MP3s off the interweb without paying for them. If you call that stealing so is this.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
It's no better/worse than just downloading the MP3s off the interweb without paying for them. If you call that stealing so is this.

[/ QUOTE ]

...except that you did actually purchase the CD. I don't own an MP3 ir iPod or anyt of those things, and typically I call it theft, but I think gray area on this.

[usmfan]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but here goes. Copying/downloading music that you don't own is stealing. This is not really any different than buying a 2+2 book, copying every page, selling the book and keeping the copies.
Have I done it? Yes (music & movies). Is it stealing? Yes. Should it be punishable by death like the RIAA wants? No, but don't kid yourself about what it is.

[TheIrishThug]

well i assume u r not reselling it for the same purchase price, so u r paying for the songs. and i don't think the record companies really care if u actually listen or just buy it. so i guess they can't really say anything if u decided to sell an item u bought.

[trying2learn]

but he copied music that he DID own.

[Easy E]

ooh, good one.

I believe in the old days that music licensing allowed you to make one copy of music that you owned, for your own personal use. I do not know if reselling the original source cancelled your rights to use the recorded material, back when it was plastic and 8-track tapes.

Have they added such a rule, about loss regarding digital music purchases? Is it considered a license to use, rather than an ownership transfer, similar to computer software programs?

If you license MP3s/digital music, rather than "own" them, I would say that this is theft.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe in the old days that music licensing allowed you to make one copy of music that you owned, for your own personal use.

[/ QUOTE ] more accurately, it was consider a backup copy of something you purchased. This law is still around and it pertains to CD's.

[Easy E]

If I sell my CD to you, and you rip MP3s, then you sell to El Diablo.... and so on and so on...

Is all of this legal? I may have to rethink what service is actually being offered by record companies.

[Benal]

You wont get full retail value when you sell the CD, so you in fact payed for those MP3s.

[Edge34]

This is totally fine, the record company and artist are getting their money for the CD they produced and sold. There really is nothing "gray area" about this.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
If I sell my CD to you, and you rip MP3s, then you sell to El Diablo.... and so on and so on...

Is all of this legal? I may have to rethink what service is actually being offered by record companies.

[/ QUOTE ]well, lets see here. You would at some point "own" that CD. I don't know actually here, interesting question.

[Easy E]

Once you sell a CD, do you lose your backup privileges?

I believe you do for software, I didn't know if music was the same.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude... is there something in that oregon water?

Once you sell the CD you lose your rights to keep the MP3s.

If two people want the CD I'm thinking the record company would like to get money for selling two CDs not just one.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
This is totally fine, the record company and artist are getting their money for the CD they produced and sold. There really is nothing "gray area" about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are joking, right?

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally fine, the record company and artist are getting their money for the CD they produced and sold. There really is nothing "gray area" about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are joking, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me somewhere in the law where it says that you must permanently own the physical disc with those songs on it.

Setp 1) you bought the CD.

Step 2) Owning the rights to said music, you ripped them onto your mp3 or whatever other form for your own personal enjoyment.

Setp 3) The only POSSIBLE place you could disagree with me, you sell the CD for like 3 bucks after paying from $10-15 for it in a store. This store resells it, and where that money goes is none of my business...

I'm not joking at all, I fail to see how this could possibly be considered stealing once you've paid for the CD.

EDIT: Your avatar is Razor, from the whole "Razor and Tie" music thing that will sell you CD subscriptions through commercials for the rest of your natural born life...connections? Also, someone mentioned "backup" copies. Would you also say one must destroy that if they chose to sell the CD at a later date?

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they don't when it is sold the second time.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally fine, the record company and artist are getting their money for the CD they produced and sold. There really is nothing "gray area" about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are joking, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me somewhere in the law where it says that you must permanently own the physical disc with those songs on it.

Setp 1) you bought the CD.

Step 2) Owning the rights to said music, you ripped them onto your mp3 or whatever other form for your own personal enjoyment.

Setp 3) The only POSSIBLE place you could disagree with me, you sell the CD for like 3 bucks after paying from $10-15 for it in a store. This store resells it, and where that money goes is none of my business...

I'm not joking at all, I fail to see how this could possibly be considered stealing once you've paid for the CD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you sold the CD. It's no longer yours. You have no right to keep the MP3s.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally fine, the record company and artist are getting their money for the CD they produced and sold. There really is nothing "gray area" about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are joking, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me somewhere in the law where it says that you must permanently own the physical disc with those songs on it.

Setp 1) you bought the CD.

Step 2) Owning the rights to said music, you ripped them onto your mp3 or whatever other form for your own personal enjoyment.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not going to get too involved in this discussion, but i will say this: you need to recognize that buying a cd does not mean you "own the rights" to the music on it. if you buy a beatle's cd, do you own the rights to the songs? can you give soemone permission to use the songs in a commercial? can you distribute copies of those songs to anyone you please, for a fee or otherwise? most peoples' fundamental misunderstanding of copyright law makes this thread pretty much pointless.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude... is there something in that oregon water?

Once you sell the CD you lose your rights to keep the MP3s.



[/ QUOTE ]okay, so instead of selling the CD, suppose you just lose it, or someone steals it. Then what? do you have to delete those songs? You already paid for them, so IMo they are yours to keep.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but here goes. Copying/downloading music that you don't own is stealing. This is not really any different than buying a 2+2 book, copying every page, selling the book and keeping the copies.
Have I done it? Yes (music & movies). Is it stealing? Yes. Should it be punishable by death like the RIAA wants? No, but don't kid yourself about what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you hit the nail on the head..

Also, what makes the US great and constantly coming up with innovative ideas is our copyright laws. What OP did is no different than copying the music to another CD and then selling that Copied CD.. The only difference is he sold the original with the neat artwork.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
but i will say this: you need to recognize that buying a cd does not mean you "own the rights" to the music on it.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah, we know this. You do have the right to make a backup copy for yourself though.

[ QUOTE ]
if you buy a beatle's cd, do you own the rights to the songs? can you give soemone permission to use the songs in a commercial? can you distribute copies of those songs to anyone you please, for a fee or otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ] why do you even say stupid [censored] like this?

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude... is there something in that oregon water?

Once you sell the CD you lose your rights to keep the MP3s.



[/ QUOTE ]okay, so instead of selling the CD, suppose you just lose it, or someone steals it. Then what? do you have to delete those songs? You already paid for them, so IMo they are yours to keep.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW.

Lemme know if that's how you feel if you ever write a book, or sink millions into a movie, or spend years developing musical talent.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but here goes. Copying/downloading music that you don't own is stealing. This is not really any different than buying a 2+2 book, copying every page, selling the book and keeping the copies.
Have I done it? Yes (music & movies). Is it stealing? Yes. Should it be punishable by death like the RIAA wants? No, but don't kid yourself about what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you hit the nail on the head..

Also, what makes the US great and constantly coming up with innovative ideas is our copyright laws. What OP did is no different than copying the music to another CD and then selling that Copied CD.. The only difference is he sold the original with the neat artwork.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG. don't start talking about copyright law and then make a false statement like that.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Your avatar is Razor, from the whole "Razor and Tie" music thing that will sell you CD subscriptions through commercials for the rest of your natural born life...connections?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of "Razor and Tie" until you mentioned it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude... is there something in that oregon water?

Once you sell the CD you lose your rights to keep the MP3s.



[/ QUOTE ]okay, so instead of selling the CD, suppose you just lose it, or someone steals it. Then what? do you have to delete those songs? You already paid for them, so IMo they are yours to keep.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW.

Lemme know if that's how you feel if you ever write a book, or sink millions into a movie, or spend years developing musical talent.

[/ QUOTE ]YOU ALREADY [censored] PAID FOR IT!!!

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's no better/worse than just downloading the MP3s off the interweb without paying for them. If you call that stealing so is this.

[/ QUOTE ]

...except that you did actually purchase the CD. I don't own an MP3 ir iPod or anyt of those things, and typically I call it theft, but I think gray area on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you forfeit your right to the content of the CD when you sell it.

Not that I'm holy in any way.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i will say this: you need to recognize that buying a cd does not mean you "own the rights" to the music on it.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah, we know this. You do have the right to make a backup copy for yourself though.

[ QUOTE ]
if you buy a beatle's cd, do you own the rights to the songs? can you give soemone permission to use the songs in a commercial? can you distribute copies of those songs to anyone you please, for a fee or otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ] why do you even say stupid [censored] like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

you know what, fVck you. i was exaggerating on purpose to make a point, assh0le. your attempt to look smart fails.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]

i'm not going to get too involved in this discussion, but i will say this: you need to recognize that buying a cd does not mean you "own the rights" to the music on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I know that. I believed most people would understand the phrasing I used. Deepest apologies sir.

You paid for the right to listen to it and use it for your personal enjoyment. I think you knew what I meant, too, and just wanted to point something out. Thanks again.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i will say this: you need to recognize that buying a cd does not mean you "own the rights" to the music on it.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah, we know this. You do have the right to make a backup copy for yourself though.

[/ QUOTE ]

that has nothing to do with the point i was making, but hey thanks for trying to look like you knew what i was talking about.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude... is there something in that oregon water?

Once you sell the CD you lose your rights to keep the MP3s.



[/ QUOTE ]okay, so instead of selling the CD, suppose you just lose it, or someone steals it. Then what? do you have to delete those songs? You already paid for them, so IMo they are yours to keep.

[/ QUOTE ]

We weren't talking about lost CDs.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i will say this: you need to recognize that buying a cd does not mean you "own the rights" to the music on it.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah, we know this. You do have the right to make a backup copy for yourself though.

[ QUOTE ]
if you buy a beatle's cd, do you own the rights to the songs? can you give soemone permission to use the songs in a commercial? can you distribute copies of those songs to anyone you please, for a fee or otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ] why do you even say stupid [censored] like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

you know what, fVck you. i was exaggerating on purpose to make a point, assh0le. your attempt to look smart fails.

[/ QUOTE ]likewise.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the big deal is. New CD's are 14ish, usually stores buy used ones for like 3-5 dollars or some low ass amount. Once you buy a CD, you can rip all the songs and put them on an mp3 player. That is completely legal. Distributing it is not of course.

I don't see how there is anything wrong with this. The record companies still get their money as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude... is there something in that oregon water?

Once you sell the CD you lose your rights to keep the MP3s.



[/ QUOTE ]okay, so instead of selling the CD, suppose you just lose it, or someone steals it. Then what? do you have to delete those songs? You already paid for them, so IMo they are yours to keep.

[/ QUOTE ]

We weren't talking about lost CDs.

[/ QUOTE ]I think it has some relevance. Once you no longer have a CD (for whatever reason) do you loose all rights to have copies of said CD. I realize selling it is different, but I am more interested in what happens when a CD you purchased ceases to be in your possesion.

[mmbt0ne]

Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music. Would it be illegal for me to use this CD to rip mp3s? Do I just have to pay SOMEONE for the music, or do I have to pay the actual company that first produced it?

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music. Would it be illegal for me to use this CD to rip mp3s? Do I just have to pay SOMEONE for the music, or do I have to pay the actual company that first produced it?

[/ QUOTE ]

As the legal owner of that legal copy of music...

[tessarji]

The only correct answer is none of the above.

You have not stolen anything. You have commited copyright violation. These are separate crimes in the legal code.

If the music companies took you to court for petty theft, it would be thrown out. Anyways, the penalties for copyright violation are far more severe than the penalties for stealing a $15 item from a music store.

For better or worse, it is the media corporations who have attempted to associate this pejorative term with a unrelated crime.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes you did. The RIAA has sued 10-year-olds over money for God's sake, you think they wanna let these used record stores off that easy?

Actually, this totally shoots the original argument down...maybe you only own the right to copy the music to mp3 if you own the $10-15 original copy? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music. Would it be illegal for me to use this CD to rip mp3s? Do I just have to pay SOMEONE for the music, or do I have to pay the actual company that first produced it?

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone sells the CD they are transferring ownership and rights to MP3s... thus when you buy that used CD you receive ownership and rights to MP3s. The record company was already paid for that CD.

[BeerMoney]

I love how you can read the title of these posts and already know the answer before you open it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music. Would it be illegal for me to use this CD to rip mp3s? Do I just have to pay SOMEONE for the music, or do I have to pay the actual company that first produced it?

[/ QUOTE ]valid questions, because if its okay to buy used CD's and to rip those songs, I don't see how buying a new CD ripping it, and then selling it to a used Cd store is any different.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music. Would it be illegal for me to use this CD to rip mp3s? Do I just have to pay SOMEONE for the music, or do I have to pay the actual company that first produced it?

[/ QUOTE ]valid questions, because if its okay to buy used CD's and to rip those songs, I don't see how buying a new CD ripping it, and then selling it to a used Cd store is any different.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow!!!!

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
valid questions, because if its okay to buy used CD's and to rip those songs, I don't see how buying a new CD ripping it, and then selling it to a used Cd store is any different.

[/ QUOTE ]

In A One piece of music was bought, used, sold, and used again.

In B One piece of music was bought, copied, the origional sold, and is now used by two people.

This is the same as buying a book and making a copy of the book. Do you think you have a right to sell the copy and keep the original? If not, why do you think you can keep the copy and sell the original?

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i will say this: you need to recognize that buying a cd does not mean you "own the rights" to the music on it.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah, we know this. You do have the right to make a backup copy for yourself though.

[/ QUOTE ]

that has nothing to do with the point i was making, but hey thanks for trying to look like you knew what i was talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't make your point very clearly. You are throwing around the phrase "own the rights" as if there are only one type of rights, THE rights, and that refers to the right to distribute, reproduce, sell, etc. Michael Jackson has certain rights when it comes to some Beatles' music. So do I. I bought a CD. I have the right to make a backup copy of the music. I have the right to play it for personal use. I don't have the right to play it in a public restaurant I (hypothetically) own.

There are different types of rights, and you weren't specific at all. TSC either was legitimately confused, or was busting you for your poor communication.

[ThaSaltCracka]

looking at price paid, the person who purchased the original CD and sold it still pays more. I still don't think that is stealing, especially when taking into consideration how much the person buying the used CD is paying.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
looking at price paid, the person who purchased the original CD and sold it still pays more. I still don't think that is stealing, especially when taking into consideration how much the person buying the used CD is paying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets run with this a bit.

Say you buy the cd from the used cd store for $3. You RIP some MP3's and then sell it back to them for $1.50. Hell, lets say demand went up and you sell it back to them for $3 and they sell it to someone else for $6.00. Do you think in either of these cases you stole the MP3's? How much do you have to lose when re-selling the CD for it to be ok?

[beernutz]

<font color="red"> Step 2) Owning the rights to said music, you ripped them onto your mp3 or whatever other form for your own personal enjoyment. </font>

You do not own the right to convert the CD to another format (e.g. mp3) and use it. The copyright holder retains that right unless it is explicitly released. Just because you have the ability to easily do something does not give you a legal right to do it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally fine, the record company and artist are getting their money for the CD they produced and sold. There really is nothing "gray area" about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are joking, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me somewhere in the law where it says that you must permanently own the physical disc with those songs on it.

Setp 1) you bought the CD.

Step 2) Owning the rights to said music, you ripped them onto your mp3 or whatever other form for your own personal enjoyment.

Setp 3) The only POSSIBLE place you could disagree with me, you sell the CD for like 3 bucks after paying from $10-15 for it in a store. This store resells it, and where that money goes is none of my business...

I'm not joking at all, I fail to see how this could possibly be considered stealing once you've paid for the CD.

EDIT: Your avatar is Razor, from the whole "Razor and Tie" music thing that will sell you CD subscriptions through commercials for the rest of your natural born life...connections? Also, someone mentioned "backup" copies. Would you also say one must destroy that if they chose to sell the CD at a later date?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
looking at price paid, the person who purchased the original CD and sold it still pays more. I still don't think that is stealing, especially when taking into consideration how much the person buying the used CD is paying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets run with this a bit.

Say you buy the cd from the used cd store for $3. You RIP some MP3's and then sell it back to them for $1.50. Hell, lets say demand went up and you sell it back to them for $3 and they sell it to someone else for $6.00. Do you think in either of these cases you stole the MP3's? How much do you have to lose when re-selling the CD for it to be ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep going. What if I own 5% of the used music store, and I copy all the tracks off all the used CDs during the time that I own them?

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music. Would it be illegal for me to use this CD to rip mp3s? Do I just have to pay SOMEONE for the music, or do I have to pay the actual company that first produced it?

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone sells the CD they are transferring ownership and rights to MP3s... thus when you buy that used CD you receive ownership and rights to MP3s. The record company was already paid for that CD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Source?

[Easy E]

This is the same as buying a book and making a copy of the book. Do you think you have a right to sell the copy and keep the original? If not, why do you think you can keep the copy and sell the original?

That raises another question- if you lose the original of music, or software, can you keep/use the backup copy? Or are you required to purchase the original again to "back up" your backup?

Could that all-American institution, the yard sale (or garage sale, depending where you live) be instead a vast underground hotbed of trademark infringement and vast criminal enterprise? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I was originally angry about the recent spate of stealing threads, but this is getting interesting.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait. So what about if I buy a used CD from a CD store? I didn't give the RIAA 1 red cent for that music. Would it be illegal for me to use this CD to rip mp3s? Do I just have to pay SOMEONE for the music, or do I have to pay the actual company that first produced it?

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone sells the CD they are transferring ownership and rights to MP3s... thus when you buy that used CD you receive ownership and rights to MP3s. The record company was already paid for that CD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Source?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking in the abstract/theoretical here...

[touchfaith]

Ok, I've read most of the responses and will give this one a crack.

I vote 'grey area'.

When I originally read the OP, I misread and thought he meant "return to the music store" rather then "re-sell to a music store".

If returned to the original store for full purchase price, I think it is fairly obvious that making a copy is not allowed as you are backing out of any contract that my have been in place. But this isn't the question...

I do not think the question can be answered without using the term "professional reproduction"

I do not think that you have a right to professionally reproduce the product and then resell the original.

That is why it is a grey area for me. Are MP3's a professional reproductions?

Some would argue that yes, the quality of MP3's are high enough to be considered professional. However, that does not completely answer the question.

Has the music been burned to CD?
Has the jacket been reproduced?
Was the CD label reproduced?

I do not think that copying of the music to an iPod and then reselling the original at used pricing is a problem, however, I do think it's a grey area for the reasons above...

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

That raises another question- if you lose the original of music, or software, can you keep/use the backup copy? Or are you required to purchase the original again to "back up" your backup?


[/ QUOTE ]

Loss/stolen - Yes you can use the backup copy. Proving your MP3's are legal would be a bit sticky, but there is nothing ethically wrong with using a backup copy of your music because you lost the CD. There is nothing legally wrong with it either. I'm sure the RIAA feels differently though, but that's what they are paid for.

[Easy E]

[ QUOTE ]
[quoteWhat OP did is no different than copying the music to another CD and then selling that Copied CD.. The only difference is he sold the original with the neat artwork.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG. don't start talking about copyright law and then make a false statement like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this a false statement? Seriously, I don't know.

[Ulysses]

This is just as wrong as downloading the songs from the Internet or borrowing a friend's CD and ripping the songs from that. The horrible logic displayed in some of the responses in this thread is appalling.

TSC, between this and the other thread, I am really stunned at your lack of understanding of some very basic concepts. By your logic in this thread, ten friends could each buy one CD each, rip them, give that CD as a gift to another friend, and a few rips later, all ten friends would have paid for one CD and legally own the music from ten CDs.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just as wrong as downloading the songs from the Internet or borrowing a friend's CD and ripping the songs from that. The horrible logic displayed in some of the responses in this thread is appalling.

TSC, between this and the other thread, I am really stunned at your lack of understanding of some very basic concepts. By your logic in this thread, ten friends could each buy one CD each, rip them, give that CD as a gift to another friend, and a few rips later, all ten friends would have paid for one CD and legally own the music from ten CDs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for saying this. Seriously.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is just as wrong as downloading the songs from the Internet or borrowing a friend's CD and ripping the songs from that. The horrible logic displayed in some of the responses in this thread is appalling.

TSC, between this and the other thread, I am really stunned at your lack of understanding of some very basic concepts. By your logic in this thread, ten friends could each buy one CD each, rip them, give that CD as a gift to another friend, and a few rips later, all ten friends would have paid for one CD and legally own the music from ten CDs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for saying this. Seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was waiting for him to chime in.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
looking at price paid, the person who purchased the original CD and sold it still pays more.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're getting back to the value of the thing being relevant to how the thing was obtained.

[SammyKid11]

I'm gonna weigh in here, because I am both an artist and the owner of a small record label. I've sold CD's nationally and internationally for a number of years.

This DOES constitute stealing. For every used CD that's bought, that's one NEW CD that artist doesn't get paid for having sold. Two people have the music that the artist has sweat and bled for...only ONE of them has paid THE ARTIST.

Yes, major record labels are large and greedy, and it feels good sometimes to screw them over. However, THEY don't get screwed over. They pass the dicking onto the artists. Most artists (even on major labels) are making crappy money, and every sale that goes out their pocket is money they don't have.

Yes, it's stealing. No, don't do it. Just buy a CD and listen to it. Or buy off iTunes or another legal download purchasing site. Don't be a cock and enjoy people's music while ensuring they won't get paid what they're supposed to get paid for it. We work really hard and spend lots of money to put out music that people will find comfort and happiness and solace and despair and love and hate and aggression and calm in.....we gamble our lives and our families and our finances to take a risk and put it out.

Just buy the stuff and listen to it and be happy. If you can't afford to not resell the stuff after you copy it, then just be content listening to the radio.

[ibankonu]

[ QUOTE ]
looking at price paid, the person who purchased the original CD and sold it still pays more. I still don't think that is stealing, especially when taking into consideration how much the person buying the used CD is paying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that this is a matter of who paid what. I take this as once you sold the CD and accepted money, regardless of what you paid for it, you don't have rights to the music anymore, whereas if you bought a copy at a used store, it is now your legal copy.

At least that is how i see this issue. I could be way off.

[Tron]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna weigh in here, because I am both an artist and the owner of a small record label. I've sold CD's nationally and internationally for a number of years.

This DOES constitute stealing. For every used CD that's bought, that's one NEW CD that artist doesn't get paid for having sold. Two people have the music that the artist has sweat and bled for...only ONE of them has paid THE ARTIST.

Yes, major record labels are large and greedy, and it feels good sometimes to screw them over. However, THEY don't get screwed over. They pass the dicking onto the artists. Most artists (even on major labels) are making crappy money, and every sale that goes out their pocket is money they don't have.

Yes, it's stealing. No, don't do it. Just buy a CD and listen to it. Or buy off iTunes or another legal download purchasing site. Don't be a cock and enjoy people's music while ensuring they won't get paid what they're supposed to get paid for it. We work really hard and spend lots of money to put out music that people will find comfort and happiness and solace and despair and love and hate and aggression and calm in.....we gamble our lives and our families and our finances to take a risk and put it out.

Just buy the stuff and listen to it and be happy. If you can't afford to not resell the stuff after you copy it, then just be content listening to the radio.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are opposed to used CD stores?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna weigh in here, because I am both an artist and the owner of a small record label. I've sold CD's nationally and internationally for a number of years.

This DOES constitute stealing. For every used CD that's bought, that's one NEW CD that artist doesn't get paid for having sold. Two people have the music that the artist has sweat and bled for...only ONE of them has paid THE ARTIST.

Yes, major record labels are large and greedy, and it feels good sometimes to screw them over. However, THEY don't get screwed over. They pass the dicking onto the artists. Most artists (even on major labels) are making crappy money, and every sale that goes out their pocket is money they don't have.

Yes, it's stealing. No, don't do it. Just buy a CD and listen to it. Or buy off iTunes or another legal download purchasing site. Don't be a cock and enjoy people's music while ensuring they won't get paid what they're supposed to get paid for it. We work really hard and spend lots of money to put out music that people will find comfort and happiness and solace and despair and love and hate and aggression and calm in.....we gamble our lives and our families and our finances to take a risk and put it out.

Just buy the stuff and listen to it and be happy. If you can't afford to not resell the stuff after you copy it, then just be content listening to the radio.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are opposed to used CD stores?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you get that from his post? He made his point well and was very clear. He simply thinks the artist should be paid once for each person that owns the CD. If someone decides they don't want the CD, they can sell it. If someone wants to wait until a CD is available at a used CD store and buy it from them, that is fine. There's a big difference between that and making a copy of the CD then reselling it (or just downloading/copying the music).

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
TSC, between this and the other thread, I am really stunned at your lack of understanding of some very basic concepts.

[/ QUOTE ] I think the disagreement here is that I do not think it should be illegal to purchase a new CD, burn the songs onto a your PC for your use, and to re-sell the CD to a store for much less than you paid for the CD originally. I think as long as you do not distribute the music, you are not infringing on someone else's copyright.

[ThaSaltCracka]

btw, I love how this thread has one star, it is pretty lame.

[Tron]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you get that from his post?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
For every used CD that's bought, that's one NEW CD that artist doesn't get paid for having sold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was mainly that statement, which is true regardless of whether any ripping or burning goes on.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where do you get that from his post?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
For every used CD that's bought, that's one NEW CD that artist doesn't get paid for having sold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was mainly that statement, which is true regardless of whether any ripping or burning goes on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You conveniently ignored the context and clarification he provided:

This DOES constitute stealing. For every used CD that's bought, that's one NEW CD that artist doesn't get paid for having sold. Two people have the music that the artist has sweat and bled for...only ONE of them has paid THE ARTIST.

He specifies "this" which is the situtation we are talking about in this thread. He then clarifies that he is talking about two people having the music and only one has paid.

Later he clarifies again that he is talking about copying the music first before reselling it, which is of course what the whole thread is about:

Just buy the stuff and listen to it and be happy. If you can't afford to not resell the stuff after you copy it, then just be content listening to the radio.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TSC, between this and the other thread, I am really stunned at your lack of understanding of some very basic concepts.

[/ QUOTE ] I think the disagreement here is that I do not think it should be illegal to purchase a new CD, burn the songs onto a your PC for your use, and to re-sell the CD to a store for much less than you paid for the CD originally. I think as long as you do not distribute the music, you are not infringing on someone else's copyright.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to spend a night at a Holiday Inn Express

[ QUOTE ]
btw, I love how this thread has one star, it is pretty lame.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this thread is so lame why did you write to it 12 times?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TSC, between this and the other thread, I am really stunned at your lack of understanding of some very basic concepts.

[/ QUOTE ] I think the disagreement here is that I do not think it should be illegal to purchase a new CD, burn the songs onto a your PC for your use, and to re-sell the CD to a store for much less than you paid for the CD originally. I think as long as you do not distribute the music, you are not infringing on someone else's copyright.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to spend a night at a Holiday Inn Express

[/ QUOTE ]well, look at it this way.

One person spends $15 on a CD, burns the disc, resells it for $4 dollars, so he essentially paid $11. Someone buys the used CD for $6. I undertand legally that the second person owns the disc, and now has the right to make backup copies, but it doesn't seem right. Legally its right, but somehow that doesn't add up for me.


Bah, whatever, lets drop this. I don't even know why I replied in this thread in the first place.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna weigh in here, because I am both an artist and the owner of a small record label. I've sold CD's nationally and internationally for a number of years.

This DOES constitute stealing. For every used CD that's bought, that's one NEW CD that artist doesn't get paid for having sold. Two people have the music that the artist has sweat and bled for...only ONE of them has paid THE ARTIST.

Yes, major record labels are large and greedy, and it feels good sometimes to screw them over. However, THEY don't get screwed over. They pass the dicking onto the artists. Most artists (even on major labels) are making crappy money, and every sale that goes out their pocket is money they don't have.

Yes, it's stealing. No, don't do it. Just buy a CD and listen to it. Or buy off iTunes or another legal download purchasing site. Don't be a cock and enjoy people's music while ensuring they won't get paid what they're supposed to get paid for it. We work really hard and spend lots of money to put out music that people will find comfort and happiness and solace and despair and love and hate and aggression and calm in.....we gamble our lives and our families and our finances to take a risk and put it out.

Just buy the stuff and listen to it and be happy. If you can't afford to not resell the stuff after you copy it, then just be content listening to the radio.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are opposed to used CD stores?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, because my livelihood is dependent on selling CD's, yeah...I am opposed to used CD stores -- in the same way that Ford doesn't want you buying used cars. But that's neither here nor there. As has been mentioned, you have COMPLETELY missed the point.

If you buy a CD for an artist on my label, then copy to your hard drive, then sell it to CD World, YOU still get to enjoy the music just the same as if you hadn't resold it. Meanwhile, someone else comes along, buys the disc used, and THEY get to enjoy the music -- two people getting to use my product...only ONE person paying me.

Of course you, as the original buyer, have the right to sell a product you've already bought...what you don't have the right to do is retain everything valuable about the product AND get to sell it. You are stealing money from artists and labels (and not all artists and labels are rich - most aren't). The four bucks you get back for reselling the disc (while not having to give up the music) is MORE than most ARTISTS see for each sale of their disc.

On the other hand, if you buy a car and then sell it...YOU yourself no longer get to use the product you just sold for a fractional rebate of your purchase price. You have traded the use of the product for the money you get in exchange.

In the case of buying, burning, and selling -- you (the sellor) give up nothing. Nothing comes from nothing. You have effectively (albeit via a complicated chain) stolen from the people writing, performing, producing, and promoting the music you profess to be a fan of. It's crappy and you absolutely should not do it. Granted, there's no great legal way to stop you...but this thread is about whether or not this is morally okay, a gray area, or stealing.

From someone LIVING it...I can tell you it's not okay and there's no gray area. If you like music, buy it. If you no longer want to listen to it, resell it. But don't keep it for yourself AND sell it. If you like the product enough to keep it, why would you steal from the people who made the music you enjoy?

That's just being a douchebag. And all for four bucks.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TSC, between this and the other thread, I am really stunned at your lack of understanding of some very basic concepts.

[/ QUOTE ] I think the disagreement here is that I do not think it should be illegal to purchase a new CD, burn the songs onto a your PC for your use, and to re-sell the CD to a store for much less than you paid for the CD originally. I think as long as you do not distribute the music, you are not infringing on someone else's copyright.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are infringing on someone else's copyright, both ethically AND legally. When you purchase a CD, you are actually purchasing a license to listen, on demand, to intellectual property (the songs) and their mechanical recreations (the recordings) contained on physical product (the CD). When you SELL that CD to a used CD retailer, you are selling the physical product, yes...but you are also selling your on-demand license to the intellectual property and their mechanical recreations. You no longer have a legal right to an on-demand listen of that product. Though it's impossible to police, you are - in point of fact - breaking the law.

And tell me how this is any different than distributing music illegally? What is the difference between buying, burning, and reselling for 4 bucks...and buying, burning, and selling a copy to your friend for 4 bucks?

Answer: There IS no difference, ethically or legally. In BOTH cases, you get to keep everything of value from your original purchase...AND make money.

Most people won't care, because most people are cheap bastards. But this is morally and legally no different than SHOPLIFTING. If you're gonna do it, I can't stop you. But don't kid yourself about what you're doing. It's not justifiable in any sense. Those who think it is fundamentally misunderstand what they're doing.

[Dr. StrangeloveX]

I love the beautiful trainwreck that is the intersection of intellectual property law and technology. Let's here it for the new commons.

[rusty JEDI]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but here goes. Copying/downloading music that you don't own is stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not in Canada.

rJ

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
One person spends $15 on a CD, burns the disc, resells it for $4 dollars, so he essentially paid $11. Someone buys the used CD for $6. I undertand legally that the second person owns the disc, and now has the right to make backup copies, but it doesn't seem right. Legally its right, but somehow that doesn't add up for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
This bothers you? Yes, items decrease in value. That's why the car I paid 14k for is worth 7k. That's economics. When I sell that car I don't get to keep driving it.

I'm floored by the number of people that thing buying a CD is owning the rights to the music on that CD.