did i make a stupid call here? huge odds..

[kgrad5]

hey guys, late in a sng and im one of the larger stacks

***** Hand History for Game 2421453431 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:14244193 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Monday, July 25, 14:41:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 39776 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: panther656 ( $700 )
Seat 5: bogeyman999 ( $876 )
Seat 10: DontGoTILT ( $1340 )
Seat 4: kgrad55 ( $1522 )
Seat 3: MRAU2u ( $2780 )
Seat 8: Ironsam ( $782 )
Trny:14244193 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to kgrad55 [ Kd Jc ]
Ironsam calls [150].
DontGoTILT folds.
panther656 has been reconnected and has 20 seconds to act.
panther656 folds.
MRAU2u calls [150].
kgrad55 calls [75].
bogeyman999 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 5s, 3c ]
kgrad55 bets [400].
bogeyman999 is all-In [726]
Ironsam is all-In [632]
MRAU2u folds.
kgrad55 calls [326].


i was getting something like 2100 - 326 on my call but its very unlikely im best at this point...
was it ok to lead at this pot? I felt at the time that the texture was pretty good but i got a bad reaction hehe..
thanks

[tigerite]

Fold preflop

[FishHooks]

I dont think folding preflop in the SB is good at all here like the other guys said. I like your flop bet, a little more than the pot putts pressure on the short stacks, since they are short stacks they are also almost all-in if they get top pair, the guy that raised all-in might be ahead of you but with those odds you have to call him. However with betting 400 you better be prepaird to call when they go all in so I think its a no brainer.

[kgrad5]

why would i fold pf with KJ in the BB getting 7-1?

[kgrad5]

i was prepared to call an all in there, but what threw me off was the 2nd all in.. he saw the first guy go all in and still chose to call him, which leads me to believe im not good a majority of the time.. is it still a no brainer?

[FishHooks]

I think you have to call, plus most people at these lower limit SNG's aren't that great of players, those odds are just too good to throw awa.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
why would i fold pf with KJ in the BB getting 7-1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I read the hand wrong, thought you were the one who had limped UTG. I don't think I would bet out at this flop, UTG limps can often be hidden monsters, it's best to see what the others do first.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
i was prepared to call an all in there, but what threw me off was the 2nd all in.. he saw the first guy go all in and still chose to call him, which leads me to believe im not good a majority of the time.. is it still a no brainer?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on your read of UTG. Has he been tight or a loose donk? Why would he limp for 1/5th his stack from UTG knowing there's a big possibility of being raised? Is this the first time he's limped at this level, or the level before, etc? I am not bothered about calling the BB's push, but the UTG one I think I am behind here. I would check this flop to be honest or bet 2/3rd of it, 400 seems a bit too much.

[kgrad5]

UTG was ok, he was semi tight, would limp in once in a while and when he hit his hand he would insta push every time.. hadnt seen him do anything sneaky up to this point but i guess that doesnt mean he is incapable of it.

[tigerite]

But has he been limping at the 50/100 and 75/150 level even though it is a big chunk of his stack? That's the key, rather than limping for 50 when he has 600 odd, for instance (even though this also is not a good play, it's less so than the former)

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check this flop to be honest or bet 2/3rd of it, 400 seems a bit too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

400 is 2/3rds...

I think OP played the hand well. And his analysis is pretty right on.

Calling in the SB is fine with KJ...you'd be crazy not to.

Betting out is fine too...I might check here as well.

Once you've bet out and have such good odds to call, even if you are behind, you most likely still have outs...not sure if they cover the odds the pot is laying you, but, I would regrettably call here as well knowing im a loser at this point. But hey, 1 in 4 times Ive seen the two allins with crap. say AK and 77 or something....so its not SO unlikely that you even have the worst hand...and if you do, you most certainly have outs.

[WiredPear]

Pre-flop - I think your call is in order - you're getting great odds with a decent hand and no one has shown any strength.

Flop- I like your flop bet here. Obviously two of the hands are in trouble and might be getting desperate. So, you do need to be prepared to call the all-in. But I think that's reasonable.

I'd like to hear what hands do you think the first person will go all-in with at this point. AJ is possible, but he probably would've raised pre-flop. Pocket JJ? Again, not likely. Pocket 55s or 33s? Maybe, but all-in preflop would be better plan. It depends on your read of that player. I suspect a flush draw too, perhaps a QJ. Or a slowplayed AA,KK,QQ.

The second caller is interesting. I'd say you probably are trailing at this point. But let's assume that you need another Jack to hit to win. That's a 7:1 and you're getting those odds. I think this is a definitely call. Because you still have a chance of being the best hand.

[11t]

Folding here would make you the worst player ever after betting the flop.

[FishHooks]

I dont know why some suggest not leading out on the flop with a bet like you did, there is a flushdraw and a possible straight draw out there, you HAVE to bet at this flop especially when you will take this down most of the time, many people can't play short stacks and play poorly take advantage of it.

[jadducci]

I think you played that fine, You almost have to call the all in at the end. Top pair with a K kicker is strong enough IMO to make this call, especially at the 10's.

[kgrad5]

Thanks guys for all the responses.
the first guy who pushed had J5o for 2 pair, UTG had KK which i certainly did not expect. unfortunately i had no outs at all here when i called but i still think it was the right play, just making sure my thinking was right..
even though i was short stacked after this, i went on to win the sng.
thanks again for the responses

[durron597]

If you have a reason to think that the UTG limp is suspicious, I would fold preflop (though I would call if suited). If you think he's a donk who likes to limp, push preflop! The pot is huge already, and you have a good hand.

[sng-sam]

pot odds don't mean anything if you are out of the tournament. The actions suggests that you are not only behind but way behind. So I say fold preflop but after you put 400 in and 2 guys go all in after that you fold this and survive.

SAM

[FishHooks]

[ QUOTE ]
pot odds don't mean anything if you are out of the tournament. The actions suggests that you are not only behind but way behind. So I say fold preflop but after you put 400 in and 2 guys go all in after that you fold this and survive.

There is no way to fold preflop getting 7:1 and no way to fold this hand because if you loose you still have chips, quite a few because only one guy at the table really has a lot of chips


SAM

[/ QUOTE ]

people like this are what is turning me away from the forum, so much bad advice on this forum its crazy

[future]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pot odds don't mean anything if you are out of the tournament. The actions suggests that you are not only behind but way behind. So I say fold preflop but after you put 400 in and 2 guys go all in after that you fold this and survive.

There is no way to fold preflop getting 7:1 and no way to fold this hand because if you loose you still have chips, quite a few because only one guy at the table really has a lot of chips


SAM

[/ QUOTE ]

people like this are what is turning me away from the forum, so much bad advice on this forum its crazy

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It's an $11 buyin PP SNG. I've seen A LOT worse turned over in this spot. Without having actually seen the villains' hands in a post on an internet forum you played it fine IMO.

[sng-sam]

Short answer. You're right. I'm retardedededed. I didn't read carefully before responding I like the call for only 360ish more.

Long answer: why come to a forum and ask "was this a good call" and then tell the 2 guys (durron and me)with different opinions (perhaps lay it down preflop) that their opinion is wrong? KJ is called a trap hand becuase you find yourself in these types of situations where you have TPGK and you think your ahead, then when you get played back at & you regret it. If you do want to make the preflop call (I do about 1/2 the time,)you will likely need to flop something MUCH bigger than TPGK. Against this many people you just usually need more. Now..If you already think you are right why ask at all? Why insult someone who took the time to offer their opinion after you asked for it. Granted my 2 part opinion was 1 part wrong,but if you want others to help you with much trickier problems than this,you really shoudn't flame them. Now if you can't resist, then you SHOULD leave the forum. Good luck at the tables.I mean that sincerely.

SAM

P.S. the main point of my original post is that I find that far to often when someone gets busted out of a tournament they say "but I had awesome pot odds". second only to "it was soooted!"

[kgrad5]

was this post directed at me? I did not even respond to your post.. why are you telling me that im insulting you?
also, my question was about the call on the end.. not the call pre flop..

why would you come and flame me for flaming you when a) i didnt and b) you are complaining about being flamed..

[sng-sam]

[ QUOTE ]

why would i fold pf with KJ in the BB getting 7-1?

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
KJ is called a trap hand becuase you find yourself in these types of situations where you have TPGK and you think your ahead, then when you get played back at & you regret it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That wasn't you? well ok if you say so and oh by the way. Yes your question was about a pot odds call ( i agree you should make it..now) But when someone (including Durron a WELL respected poster) suggests that you maybe should have layed it down preflop and you snub the answer, it shows you don't understand. For what it's worth I was trying to help. and Further for what it's worth... You're welcome. Class is something you CAN learn but it may require humility and desire. Again sincerely Good Luck at the tables.

SAM

[SammyKid11]

You played PF fine...flop bet is in order.

If everyone turned their cards face up, there are only three hands here that you wouldn't call...33, 55, and JJ. Everything else you're calling getting better than 7:1. With the draw out there and this being an 11, I have to think at LEAST one of these guys has spades. My guess is that the other probably has a QJ or a slowplayed QQ, KK, or AA. You're getting the odds, you're committed to the pot, you make the call -- if you're behind you have ample odds to suckout. Do it every time.

[kgrad5]

that was a reply to tigerite not you or duron but it applies to both of you, and i wasnt being snobby at all, jesus stop crying. you still havent answered the question, why would i fold kj getting 7-1 when no one has shown any strength? im not being condescending here, this is your chance, plead your case. i never said i was 100% correct in any way during this whole discussion.
but after your last 2 ridiculous responses i have decided that in fact i do not want your opinions any more so you can kindly stop replying to my posts..
maybe when you grow up ill give you another chance
good luck to you sir

[tigerite]

I also stated I made a mistake and thought you had limped KJo UTG. It is fine to call it from the SB, of course. I would have taken a different line on the flop and played it with caution but that's just me.

PF was perfectly fine, from what I can tell. Like everyone else has said, you're getting 7:1 here--you gotta make this.

Me, however? After seeing two pushes following a bet of almost 3BB (at lvl 5 anyway), I would fold. It would be a tough laydown, but seeing BB push after push would be enough to scare me off. Nevertheless, I can see why you'd call both pushes.

Congrats on the win.