SnG Challenge

[Andrew Fletcher]

The Goal

To see how long it takes to build a proper bankroll for the $55 SnGs, starting with $5.50 SnGs. My inital deposit will be $165.00 into PokerStars. The proper bankroll for $55 SnGs is $1650.00.

The Rules

I'll play only NL Hold 'em SnGs. I might play turbos, but mostly the regular ones on PokerStars.

I won't move up in limits without at least 30x buy-ins for the new level. For example, If I want to play the $6.60 turbos I'll need at least $198 in my bankrolls.

I will post hands that I win and lose and explain my thinking behind how I played them.

I will post regular updates will ITM%, ROI figures, and hourly rates.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
The Goal

To see how long it takes to build a proper bankroll for the $55 SnGs, starting with $5.50 SnGs. My inital deposit will be $165.00 into PokerStars. The proper bankroll for $55 SnGs is $1650.00.

The Rules

I'll play only NL Hold 'em SnGs. I might play turbos, but mostly the regular ones on PokerStars.

I won't move up in limits without at least 30x buy-ins for the new level. For example, If I want to play the $6.60 turbos I'll need at least $198 in my bankrolls.

I will post hands that I win and lose and explain my thinking behind how I played them.

I will post regular updates will ITM%, ROI figures, and hourly rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to look at this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2938671 &page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all) thread and rethink your 'proper bankroll' for the 55s. 30 buyins will likely be plenty for the lower levels though.

Best of luck to you though. Keep us updated with your progress.

[Andrew Fletcher]

Interesting. I'm going to have a ton of time to play poker over the next month or so, so I'm excited to see where I wind up. I suspect I'll have no problem getting the correct bankroll for $11 and $22, as I've never had trouble beating the SnGs at that level. The real challenge for me will be the $33 and then the $55. Should be interesting.....

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Goal

To see how long it takes to build a proper bankroll for the $55 SnGs, starting with $5.50 SnGs. My inital deposit will be $165.00 into PokerStars. The proper bankroll for $55 SnGs is $1650.00.

The Rules

I'll play only NL Hold 'em SnGs. I might play turbos, but mostly the regular ones on PokerStars.

I won't move up in limits without at least 30x buy-ins for the new level. For example, If I want to play the $6.60 turbos I'll need at least $198 in my bankrolls.

I will post hands that I win and lose and explain my thinking behind how I played them.

I will post regular updates will ITM%, ROI figures, and hourly rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to look at this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2938671 &page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all) thread and rethink your 'proper bankroll' for the 55s. 30 buyins will likely be plenty for the lower levels though.

Best of luck to you though. Keep us updated with your progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im unsure how relevant this is, but is it possiable that players who play fewer tables at once have smaller downswings? I know its standard for players to play several tables at once but if anyone had any data disproving or proving this it would be interesting to check out.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Goal

To see how long it takes to build a proper bankroll for the $55 SnGs, starting with $5.50 SnGs. My inital deposit will be $165.00 into PokerStars. The proper bankroll for $55 SnGs is $1650.00.

The Rules

I'll play only NL Hold 'em SnGs. I might play turbos, but mostly the regular ones on PokerStars.

I won't move up in limits without at least 30x buy-ins for the new level. For example, If I want to play the $6.60 turbos I'll need at least $198 in my bankrolls.

I will post hands that I win and lose and explain my thinking behind how I played them.

I will post regular updates will ITM%, ROI figures, and hourly rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to look at this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2938671 &page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all) thread and rethink your 'proper bankroll' for the 55s. 30 buyins will likely be plenty for the lower levels though.

Best of luck to you though. Keep us updated with your progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im unsure how relevant this is, but is it possiable that players who play fewer tables at once have smaller downswings? I know its standard for players to play several tables at once but if anyone had any data disproving or proving this it would be interesting to check out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, playing fewer tables generally means you'll have a higher ROI. And hence a lower variance since variance is inversely proportional to your EV.

[FishHooks]

[/ QUOTE ]

Im unsure how relevant this is, but is it possiable that players who play fewer tables at once have smaller downswings? I know its standard for players to play several tables at once but if anyone had any data disproving or proving this it would be interesting to check out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will basically have the same downswings no matter how many tables you play. However the more tables you play usually the less money you make from each individual game because you have less attention on that game, so since your winnings will be slightly down per table (but will be higer hourly)you might experience a little bigger downswing, but not buy much. I remember long debates about this subject

[uphigh_downlow]

Agreed. My experience says that playing fewer tables results in lesser down swings. Its likely that the sample size I have will not convince a true statistician.

If you could play 8 tables eactly the way you play one table, the down swings should be the same.

However I suspect that people who play 8x at the same time, employ stock strategies that work out in the numbers, but might not be best in the given circumstances.

Anyway I have about 2K trnyz mostly 33 and 55 at party, and I have had two big downswings only. of -10 and -13.

I must say that towards the end of these swings, I was playing pretty bad and scared poker. A machine would have done better.

I would imagine that based on your skill, you shud get to your goal between 150-300 games. Or never /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[FishHooks]

10 and 13 dont seem like big downswings, I'm a mainly a cash game limit player you want to talk about downswings....

[Andrew Fletcher]

I am most interested to see how many games it actually takes to get to the $55 level. I'm be playing poker 9-5 for about a month or so....I won't be multi-tabling, unless I start to get really comfortable...

[citanul]

you might want to consider looking for curtains' method of moving up as it is accelerated. then again you might not, whatever.

citanul

[uphigh_downlow]

I would say that 13 games is a major swing for players who play one at a time.

Most ppl here who thin k they are getting better just increase the # tables they play. As such I have never had any standards to compare with.

Given the quality of the opposition, a 13 game down swing means you are doing something wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Or the poker Gods are really against you.

[Andrew Fletcher]

Since I'm a relatively new player, I also want to develop good habits. I've only been playing poker seriously for about six months. I want to start getting used to withdrawing winners as well. Someone suggested over on PocketFives that I put 75% of my winnings into my bankroll and 25% back into my bank account. Although this will slow down my ability to move up in limits, I think it will help me develop as a smart player and money management.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]

I would say that 13 games is a major swing for players who play one at a time.

Most ppl here who thin k they are getting better just increase the # tables they play. As such I have never had any standards to compare with.

Given the quality of the opposition, a 13 game down swing means you are doing something wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Or the poker Gods are really against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible advice. The swings are the same no matter how many tables you play at the same time as long as your ROI stays the same. Of course it probably lowers a bit, but then again people who multitable are usually better than people who are just beginning and play only one table. A 13 game down swing is nothing, and it certainly doesn't have to mean you are doing something wrong.

[pooh74]

hey waxie....

This challenge of yours is basically what I began in April 04. I deposited 50 into stars and lost in a a few weeks...reloaded with 100 and played shitty break even poker for about 2-3 months. I started playing the 6 turbos and cheapo 6 seaters and built up to 400 and eventually 800 then playing the 15s (1 tabling).

To make a long story short, about 7 months ago I had built my roll up close to 2k and after 1 and 2 tabling the 27s for months, I dove into the 55 +5 turbos. Thinking my bankroll was enough I figured it would be no prob.

The problem was that I wasnt ready psychologically yet. I am very risk averse and did not want to see my roll dwindle...i was down about 4-5 buyins after a week and decided to step down where I began a huge downswing and lost a 3rd of my roll. I was devestated! And most of all I began to doubt if I was any good.

My point is, thre are many great players who make the jump up to high stakes very quickly and stay there...I, for one, dont have this kind of attitude anymore...Since my poker breakdown 7 months ago, Ive decided to always tell myself I am not as good as the my winnings say I am and always play under my potential until I feel 100% ready. Having played poker seriously only a little more than a year, I think I still have a ton to learn. (I'm sure of it actually)

This attitude has helped me a lot this year and I'm happy where I am at but, I am still playing the 27s...just more tables. I instead focus on MTTs (there are pros and cons to using SNG profit for these---i think it is a very good idea to prevent burnout alone) instead of becoming a 200+15 SNG player.


Stars is the best for picking up the game IMO...the turbos are great!

[Andrew Fletcher]

Thanks for the comments. Someone on PocketFives suggested only putting 75% of my winnings into my bankroll and 25% back into my bank account. Seems like we have a similar poker history...what do you think of that idea?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the comments. Someone on PocketFives suggested only putting 75% of my winnings into my bankroll and 25% back into my bank account. Seems like we have a similar poker history...what do you think of that idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a good idea...it allows your roll to build while at the same time enjoying some of the money you win.

I basically take out money as I need it...which is constantly...I leave enough for whatever I am playing at the moment. This doesnt bother me as I see SNGs as a constant sourse of extra income (I work) and as a means to basically fund MTTs for free. I like this system now but Ill eventually leave an MTT win in my account to possibly try and move up levels for either MTTs or SNGs or both. But again...if I win a couple of grand in a MTT I dont see how that justifies jumping up levels in SNGs as i didnt earn the increase at the source. But many probably do this. If money were not needed to be allocated elsewhere (food electric etc...) I'd have quite a roll to play around with. If you have the luxury of not needing any of your poker winnings, then that is great.

One caveat, if you are just starting out, be patient...dont be surprised if you are not the king sh1t right away...take your time and have fun.

[uphigh_downlow]

It wsnt meant as any kind of advise. I said in my earlier post that as long as you play 8 tables the same as you wud one table, the downswings should be the same.

However that is easier said than done.

Anyway I'm pretty sure that 13 game swing is a pretty big downswing. I place ITM about 55% of the time. Do the math yourself for a 13 game downswing. Its not something that should happen often enough to be normal.

simpler way of looking at it would be what are the odds that a coin flips tails 13 times in a row. Course you could assume the total number of flips

[ChoicestHops]

[ QUOTE ]
I place ITM about 55% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

What, with a sample size of 150 at the 10's?

[uphigh_downlow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I place ITM about 55% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

What, with a sample size of 150 at the 10's?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'v tried real hard in my previous posts to not give out any such numbers, because I did expect responses like this.

You must forgive me for the mistake in trying to explain my point.

[ChoicestHops]

You get repsonses like mine because your claim is not sustainable.

[Maulik]

You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

My favourite function of the message boards.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

My favourite function of the message boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like how Maulik feels the need to let everyone else know when he's taken some action.

I'm not sure if the rest of the board is fascinated by who has made your ignore list, but for whatever reason, it doesn't interest me. I guess I'm more into talking about, I don't know, poker.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

My favourite function of the message boards.

[/ QUOTE ]


I like how Maulik feels the need to let everyone else know when he's taken some action.

I'm not sure if the rest of the board is fascinated by who has made your ignore list, but for whatever reason, it doesn't interest me. I guess I'm more into talking about, I don't know, poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too am interested in discussion poker. However, arguing about unsustainable ROIs & ITM is just silly. I don't mean to be rude.

[uphigh_downlow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

My favourite function of the message boards.

[/ QUOTE ]


I like how Maulik feels the need to let everyone else know when he's taken some action.

I'm not sure if the rest of the board is fascinated by who has made your ignore list, but for whatever reason, it doesn't interest me. I guess I'm more into talking about, I don't know, poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too am interested in discussion poker. However, arguing about unsustainable ROIs & ITM is just silly. I don't mean to be rude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of poker, and this is kind of a hijack of the thread, but hope that something of use will come out to the OP.

I consideres that I could have made a mistake in my earlier analysis/reply.
Lets for a minute assume that a players ITM is 50%. Is it ok to assume that the results will be distributed the same as a coin-flip. Maybe thats the mistake I made. However it seems that the results of each trny are independent of the rest(ignore psychological factors) and obviously your chances of placing in one is the same as in any other(ignoring run of cards)

Given the logic I would feel comfortable arguing thaqt its like a coin flip. Any objections?? Did i miss anything?

[MegaBet]

This is my strategy, although I don't recommend you try this right away.

I hate swings, and I feel real bad if I'm down on the day. I give myself a target. If I hit my target then I quit and start back up the next day. My original target was relatively low - $100 playing the $33s. I've slowly worked my way up to a current target of $500 a day. My first game of the day is a $215 SNG. If I come 1st (yes, it happens! /images/graemlins/grin.gif ) then I pat myself on the back for 1 hours work and I'm done. If I come second I have a good think (I may choose to use this time to get chores or whatever done with my extra time). If I get 3rd or don't place, I grind it out on the $55s until I do hit my target (I hit it about 90% of the time). So instead of thinking moving up limits, I think of straight cash. This method hits your ROI a bit, but it's all about the money, right?

I'll probably move up to the $109s on a regular basis in a couple of months assuming my method is still working, and aim for $600, $700, $800 etc a day (now we're in raptor territory!).

I know I could earn a lot more by just playing the whole day and not worry about the variance, but a regular income is very important to me, and helps me to sleep at night! lol

[dethgrind]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that 13 games is a major swing for players who play one at a time.

Most ppl here who thin k they are getting better just increase the # tables they play. As such I have never had any standards to compare with.

Given the quality of the opposition, a 13 game down swing means you are doing something wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Or the poker Gods are really against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out this recent thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2940238 ) . In particular, Lacky has been down 36 buyins and had an 18 OOTM streak. Irieguy has been down 40 and a 26 OOTM streak.

13 isn't that big a deal. I just had a 12 OOTM streak last week.

[MegaBet]

Yeah, I had a 13 downswing followed by 10 ITM. It's a crazy game sometimes. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[uphigh_downlow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would say that 13 games is a major swing for players who play one at a time.

Most ppl here who thin k they are getting better just increase the # tables they play. As such I have never had any standards to compare with.

Given the quality of the opposition, a 13 game down swing means you are doing something wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Or the poker Gods are really against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out this recent thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2940238 ) . In particular, Lacky has been down 36 buyins and had an 18 OOTM streak. Irieguy has been down 40 and a 26 OOTM streak.

13 isn't that big a deal. I just had a 12 OOTM streak last week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Din expect to see you here tower. I have read those posts. Been lurking mostly.

I havent personally had worse that -13 streak. Probably I'm just plain lucky.

My point is this. Assume Each trny is a coin flip. Whats the probability that you'll see 13 consecutive heads in 1000 flips. You're a math guy. or maybe I shud say atleast 13 onsecutive heads. what bout 2000 flips.

Anyway I dont question those posters or their skill. I quietly suspect that its the multi-tablers using stock strategies(no insult intended) and then towards the end of the streak they might play scared conservative or over-aggressive and over protective poker to try and compensate for the luck factor. That makes the straks longer than they should be.

Anyway enough rabling on this one topic alone

as an aside, we shud get together sometime and have that good ol home game /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[MegaBet]

That's assuming you money 50% of the time /images/graemlins/grin.gif

So you won't be multitabling.....Have you done the math on this. Assuming a good rate of 10 tournaments per day over a month = 300 tournaments (playing daily).

300 tournaments is not actually much - are you prepared for the fact that you may actually be down after a month due to variance ???