Review of Kng Yao's "Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker"

[fnord_too]

Well, I finally finished reading this book. Here are my thoughts:

One line summary: Great book that focuses on quantitative analysis.

Who is this book for? This book is for everyone except rank beginners (who IMO benefit more from a formulaic book until they have the mechanics of the game down and some understanding of the basic game). People who already do a lot of mathematical EV analysis of situations probably won't get too much from the book, either, but they still may pick up a trick or two and see some specific analyses they have not explicitly performed.

What does the book cover? Primarily, it covers the propper play of hands based on expected value. It goes into the math around specific situations, and shows how different assumptions impacts expected value. Where other books use more qualitative analysis, or do one or two generic EV calculations and then just give advice based on analysis that is not shown, Yao does the math for almost every hand studied and general situation discussed. Also, there is an nice short handed section, which is about the longest, most detailed discussion of shorthanded play you will find outside the shorthanded forum on these boards. (Yao posts frequently in that forum, so you can get a good feel for the type of math and discussion that is in the book by reading his posts.)

Who will this book help most? Newer, mathematically minded players will probably benefit most from this book. If you are new to the game, but prefer mathematical analysis, this book will give you a lot of good examples, which will reduce the time it takes to develop one's own analytic framework for the game. Also, vetrans who don't do a lot of mathematical analysis but rely, however succesfully, on qualitative analysis will benefit greatly from this book. It is my strong oppinion that a lot of good players just don't know where to start when analyzing the EV of different plays, and end up with very fuzzy results. In many cases they will come up with the same answer, but the more marginal the decision, the more likely a minor mistake will be made.

Over all, I think this is the best book on the technical side of the game I have read. Yao is certainly well versed in poker literature, and cites many works in the text. I really wish I had this book when I was starting out.

I would love to see Yao publish some more books, but, alas, from other posts that is not likely in the next couple years. I would say this is a must have.

[colgin]

I finished Yao's book last week and had been planning my own review although I am not sure how much more I have to add. I agree with everything you say and think this is an outstanding book. One of my few criticisms would concern the organization of the chapters but that is a very minor one and is particuallry not relevant to an experienced player.

I feel about this book the same way I fell about SSHHE -- if you are interested in bettering your hold 'em game and making more money you should read and study this book.

[TaoTe]

I've been mulling over if I should buy this book or not. I haven't played much HE lately, though. I've been grinding it out at the Omaha games. This is definately on my to read list especially after I've heard only good things about the book. Thanks for the 411.

[mosquito]

I just recently finished my first reading, and consider
it to be a quality book.

I do have a number of 'nit' complaints about the
editing, but the book is still readable.

How much you get out of the book will depend on how
much time you spend thinking about the concepts he
presents, both theoretical and with specific hands you
observe/play.

I highly reccomend the book, but not until one is
comfortable with hold'em. I would suggest 2+2 book(s)
be read first, but it is not an absolute. Yao's book
does work better in concert with other books than as a stand alone.

[King Yao]

Mosquito wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
I do have a number of 'nit' complaints about the
editing, but the book is still readable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you tell me your 'nit' complaints about editin? I could use suggestions for future editions.

So far, I've already made a few changes (or thought about them, but didn't change yet) based off of reader suggestions, including:

too many semi-colons
no double spacing after a period

Believe me, the text was so much worse before it was edited. If it went unedited, I think everyone would be throwing tomatoes at me based on the poor grammar, puncuation, etc. I am grateful I didn't self-publish, otherwise I'd look pretty stupid.

[Play Up Pompey]

I ordered the book yesterday along with "Inside the Poker Mind." Looking forward to reading it, however Amazon says it ships in 3 to 5 weeks. Crikey! I hope it doesn't take that long.

Judging from the reviews I've read, it should be very helpful.

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
Mosquito wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
I do have a number of 'nit' complaints about the
editing, but the book is still readable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you tell me your 'nit' complaints about editin? I could use suggestions for future editions.

So far, I've already made a few changes (or thought about them, but didn't change yet) based off of reader suggestions, including:

too many semi-colons
no double spacing after a period

Believe me, the text was so much worse before it was edited. If it went unedited, I think everyone would be throwing tomatoes at me based on the poor grammar, puncuation, etc. I am grateful I didn't self-publish, otherwise I'd look pretty stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will do, via PM

[Kama45]

I'm finally going to buy this. Two questions, King:

1. Is there a particular place you prefer I buy it from to benefit you the most?

2. What kind of name is King Yao? Part Fillipino and Chinese?

Thanks.

[King Yao]

1. The royalty difference for any individual book is minimal, but the place where I make out the best is BJ21.com - the publisher's site. They get 100% of the sales so my cut is a greater dollar amount. But they don't discount like other places do, so it will cost you more to buy from them. Remember, poker players should always be out to save a bet or two...unless you consider this the same as tipping a dealer /images/graemlins/smile.gif

2. I was born in Taiwan and moved to New York when I was 6. Culturally, I am more American than Chinese. The translation of my name was butchered. The sound of my name in Chinese is Jing-Han, but somehow it was made into King-Han. My first grade classmates just called me King, so it stuck from there on.

[Kama45]

Thanks! Unfortunately, I'm going to minimally stab you in the back and go through Amazon. There are a couple of other books I fugured I might as well pick up too. BTW, interesting story on the name!

[Wada]

[ QUOTE ]

2. I was born in Taiwan and moved to New York when I was 6. Culturally, I am more American than Chinese. The translation of my name was butchered. The sound of my name in Chinese is Jing-Han, but somehow it was made into King-Han. My first grade classmates just called me King, so it stuck from there on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ni hao ma /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[derick]

I've read this book. It's made it into the six books I recommend people read.

It fits into the poker literature perfectly. It gives you quantitative methods for making the correct plays.

New Suggested order of reading the Holdem Literature:

GSIH (WLLH or ITH would fit here if you like)
SSH
TOP
HPFAP
MLH
Weighing the Odds in Holdem

[smb394]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks! Unfortunately, I'm going to minimally stab you in the back and go through Amazon. There are a couple of other books I fugured I might as well pick up too. BTW, interesting story on the name!

[/ QUOTE ]

Amazon is quoting a ship date of Aug. 19th. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I'm going to look around to see if anywhere else is shipping earlier.

[baronzeus]

I like your order but I suggest putting Weighing the odds before MLH. MLH is more advanced I think.

What do all those abbreviations stand for please?
Is King Yao's book aimed at Limit or no limit?
Thanks for the help.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
What do all those abbreviations stand for please?
Is King Yao's book aimed at Limit or no limit?
Thanks for the help.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
GSIH (WLLH or ITH would fit here if you like) <font color="red"> Getting Started in Hold'em - by Ed Miller, Winning Low Limit Hold'em - by Lee Jones, Internet Texas Hold'em - by Mathew Hilger (sp?) </font>
SSH <font color="red"> Small Stakes Hold'em - by Ed Miller </font>
TOP <font color="red"> Theory of Poker - by David Sklansky </font>
HPFAP <font color="red"> Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players - by Mason Malmuth and David Sklansky </font>
MLH <font color="red"> Midle Limit Hold Em - by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier </font>


[/ QUOTE ]


Edit - and Yao's book is aimed at limit.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Is MLH good? Post reviews of it seem to be lukewarm. I liked his other books though.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
Is MLH good? Post reviews of it seem to be lukewarm. I liked his other books though.

[/ QUOTE ]

His play is sometimes weaker than what I prefer in my mid limit game, but he thinks through hands really well and points out the things the you should always be thinking about.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is MLH good? Post reviews of it seem to be lukewarm. I liked his other books though.

[/ QUOTE ]

His play is sometimes weaker than what I prefer in my mid limit game, but he thinks through hands really well and points out the things the you should always be thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

he is a very cautious to say the least. His chapter on overcards is very extensive and my out-of-the-ass guess is that 2/3 of the time he says check/fold when Ed Miller/SSHE/these boards would say bet/raise. I think he is sometimes right and sometimes wrong in his weakness.

I'm about halfway through the book and it definitely has me thinking a LOT about my game. whether I end up taking his advice or not, this makes the book worth the admission IMO.

the book is a lot more dense than it would appear (there are lots of words in it, not many tables or charts or anything else), so there's a lot of good info in it.

that said his style of play is vastly different than what people on this board are playing and studying, so you need to be able to get to the root of what he's saying rather than follow his advice blindly.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
it definitely has me thinking a LOT about my game. whether I end up taking his advice or not, this makes the book worth the admission IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's by far the most valuable book on poker I've read, that I didn't agree with much in! If nothing else you should read this book to see how lots of decently skilled but still weak limit players think and act.

Those hands that are strictly against other TAGs I tend to agree far more with than those that are against random fish. He gives people way too much credit. All in all I think the book is way too coloured by Bob's (great) style of NL.

[That guy]

I tried ordering this book and Amazon is quoting August 23rd ship date. Other sites are similar and my local B&amp;N doesn't stock it... Anyone know where I can get a copy?? (going on vacation Aug 20 to Hawaii and want to sip Mai Tai's with a few good new poker books)...

[King Yao]

I was told the second printing just shipped out to the distributors today. I don't know how long it would take from there to the retailers like Amazon. My publisher (bj21.com) will be receiving a shipment soon too. If you email them at orders@bj21.com they will give you an accurate date - but they don't discount like Amazon does.

Hello,

This appears to be the best book out there to calculate odds. I know its more geared towards limit players but I'm wondering if a NL player would benifit from reading. Thanks!