Average saw flop percentage for the entire table

Hello. I play at Stars .5/1 full ring. The games there have always felt tighter than most people make micro limit out to be. (SSH, for example, talks about games which average over 5 players per flop). I just never see this.

This could be poor table selection by me, but usually, there are only 4 tables or so at this limit to choose from.

So, I am looking at the sessions tab of my PT stats, and I see that out of 58 sessions, the average saw flop percentage for the entire table, averaged across all sessions, is 30.48. The range is 22.67 to 38.66. This means on average, only 3, and sometimes 4, people see the flop, including the blinds.

What is the average for everybody else here? I am curious about that statistic over several different limits and several different sites. Perhaps you can post what limit you play at, what site you play at, and what the ASF average is across all your sessions at that limit.

[ArturiusX]

Stars sucks for full ring. Play party.

Also, voluntarily put into put is different to saw flop, as saw flop includes the BB. I'd say a VPIP average of 35%+ is pretty good table, 45%+ is excellent.

4 people on a flop regularly is very beatable.

[jrz1972]

Party .5/1 6-max ASF = 57.40
Party .5/1 full ASF = 40.24
Paradise .5/1 full ASF = 38.07
Stars .5/1 full ASF = 35.13

I tend to play a lot in the early evening and weekend mornings/afternoons. Relatively few of my hands are in "prime time."

Party is a bit flakey about the use of pokertracker from what I can see. Until I see them come out and say "The use of Pokertracker and GameTime+ is allowed," I will stay away. Perhaps they have come out and said that, I am not 100% sure on that. But last I heard, they were sending out scary emails to some people using PT and GT+. If somebody can post a statement from Party saying that they support the use of PT, I will likely hop on over.

Luckily, on Stars, I make most of my money post flop. There are a lot of weak tights at the tables I sit at, that love making "good folds."

[jrz1972]

Actually, my ASF from Stars is wrong, because PT mixes all the full ring and 6-max games together.

[flo]

Where did you read that they send emails regarding PT and GT+? I only read about Pokeredge, because it somewhat shares HHs across all customers.

There was a thread on the pokertracker forums about it. Nobody has been banned because of it, but several people there were getting nervous.

Here is what one PT user got from a party affiliate, though I will note that in her original email, she lumped PT and PE in one grouping.

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Selma,

PartyPoker strictly prohibits usage of programs that:

1) Automate playing of the hand in any way
2) Participate in collusion or any other cheating methods
3) Use any information which may provide you with an unfair advantage through
cheating

We detect and block programs that fall in any of the above categories. Usage of
such programs may result in poker account closure and funds forfeiture as per
our Terms and Conditions.

Regarding your query on *pokertracker, playerview and poker-edge*, as they fall
in the above categories, usage of the same will result in poker account closure
and funds forfeiture as per our Terms and Conditions.

Regards,

Chaitanya
Investigations Team,
alerts@EmpirePoker.com

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like it is allowed, and will continue to be, but I am a paranoid mofo, and was hoping to see an email from them saying that they directly allow PT and GT+, like I have seen from Stars.

[flo]

Actually, the mail says it's not allowed? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

There are other emails saying it is allowed. This is just one example where they said it is not allowed. Gathering all the evidence I have seen from both sides, it appears that on balance, it is allowed for now.

There were a few long threads on the pokertracker forums about it.

[flo]

The possibility of getting the account closed for something the pp-stuff isn't certain about is not funny /images/graemlins/mad.gif
I will play on euro now.

Well, the post wasn't originally about this, and it kinda got hijacked.

So, do you happen to have the average saw flop for the tables you were playing there? If so, I would like to see, just to see how much worse stars is compared to the competition.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, my ASF from Stars is wrong, because PT mixes all the full ring and 6-max games together.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats true, but you can change a session in PT from Full Ring to 6 Max using Utilities/Database Maintenance and Options.

[Guthrie]

I play all times of the day, but more late night (Central).

Paradise .25/.50 44.51
Paradise .50/1 39.93

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello. I play at Stars .5/1 full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does anyone play at any Stars Game that is also available at Party?

I was just playing some Nano-Limit Stud8 at Stars because Party doesn't offer lower than .5/1. Although the .04/.08 was a Donkfest, the .25/.50 game seemed surprisingly tight to me. If I was playing at higher limits I imagine there would have to be a better game somewhere other than Stars.

I play at stars because I didn't know any better. I signed up for stars because I wanted a change from UB. I was mostly playing at Sit-N-Gos at one point, and Stars was better for that than UB in my opinion. When I decided I would start grinding out at limit games with a specific purpose in mind (as opposed to just playing just to play), Stars is where I had my bankroll.

After I snag this 120 dollar bonus at Stars, I will be moving up to 1/2 games, and at that point, I will probably be moving over to party (after I get an email response from them specifically saying that PT and GT+ are allowed.)

One reason I made this post is I felt lost in this micro-limit forum. Everybody kept saying how loose players are at this limit, and how it is impossible to bluff, and how check raising is a waste, since they will just check-call with anything, and so on and so forth. I simply was not seeing it at Stars. I would sit at a game that would be loose, but there would be 4 TAGs on the waiting list behind me, waiting for the fish to get up. Sometimes, there would be no loose games at all.

If the stats I see keep coming in, showing that other sites are over 33% looser than Stars, it will be a clear move for me off of the site, either to Party, or back to UB (provided that UB stats look better than Stars).

Conversely, if the stats show that Stars 1/2 and 2/4 are much looser than the .5/1 tables, I will probably stay.

[flo]

I display players with vol. put $ in > 30% in a different color, and i usually have 2-3 tables (out of 4) with an average of 30%+. I play micro full ring btw.
I've choosen put$in because i think playing tight is kinda the first and easiest thing one can learn when playing, and if they fail to stay under 30%, then i assume they are quite bad in general. Maybe i should up that to 35%...

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I will probably be moving over to party (after I get an email response from them specifically saying that PT and GT+ are allowed.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Jack,
Everyone is using PT and GT+ at Party and skins without issue. I wouldn't suggest emailing them about it though. I see no benefit in that, and there is a small but sometimes vocal minority of users don't like don't like their PT policy, so being low key is probably the best course.

If you go to Party, get a rakeback deal if there is one available.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, my ASF from Stars is wrong, because PT mixes all the full ring and 6-max games together.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats true, but you can change a session in PT from Full Ring to 6 Max using Utilities/Database Maintenance and Options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I knew there had to be some way to do that but I was too lazy to look into it. I'll have to check this out when I get home.

[jrz1972]

The ring games at Stars are fairly tough (relative to other microlimit games). They're definitely beatable, but it's a night and day difference from the Party network.

I play at Stars for reloads and I also log an extra session here and there when I feel like a competitive challenge. Overall, though, I'm like Tom. I don't get why anybody would make that their home site. Party is far softer.

[ClonexxSA]

[ QUOTE ]
The ring games at Stars are fairly tough (relative to other microlimit games). They're definitely beatable, but it's a night and day difference from the Party network.

I play at Stars for reloads and I also log an extra session here and there when I feel like a competitive challenge. Overall, though, I'm like Tom. I don't get why anybody would make that their home site. Party is far softer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I currently play at stars because I didnt know any better when I started. Im at about $120 there and am seriously considering withdrawing and heading over to Paradise to build up to the $500 I need to take full advantage of the Party bonus.

Ive been told though that I should wait until $200 to deposit on Paradise to take full advantage of their bonus...I just dont know if I want to spend any more time at Stars playing .25/.50....

So, how about UltimateBet? Does anybody have any stats from the tables there? I have about 50 bonus dollars languishing there that I am thinking about grinding out before testing the waters at Party. Are they as tough as Stars? As soft as Party? What kinds of stats do you guys have on UB?

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Jack,
Everyone is using PT and GT+ at Party and skins without issue. I wouldn't suggest emailing them about it though. I see no benefit in that, and there is a small but sometimes vocal minority of users don't like don't like their PT policy, so being low key is probably the best course.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went ahead and emailed party anyway, just to see what they would say about PT. I do not feel like having my account closed and having hundreds to maybe thousands at a later point lost. Here is what I recieved:

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Jack

With regards to your issues, We would like to express our sincerest
apologies for the misunderstanding in our earlier email.

In response to your query, you will not be allowed to PokerTracker or
any other software that enables you to gain an unfair advantage towards
other players.

PartyPoker.com strictly forbids the use of inappropriate marketing
methods on our public forums


Stef B
poker Customer Care



[/ QUOTE ]

I have no clue where the inappropriate marketing statement came from, that was totally out in left field. The part about "misunderstanding" was a bit humerous, though I had asked them to clarify their position on PT and GT+, and I recieved this as a reponse:

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for contacting us.

With response to your query, you will not be able to do it , as we do
not have such option. We request you to open an account with us and
deposit a minimum of $50 into your account to play on real money tables.

Open Real Money account today and enjoy our new Real Money 'Beginners'
live tables specifically for the new real money players. These tables
are available under new tab called Beginners.

Note: Please do not disclose your password to any
individual/organization claiming to represent us. We will never ask you for the password to
your account. If you receive any email or phone call from anyone
requesting you to provide your password please report it to us immediately.

Our Customer Care Department is available 24/7 to assist you via email.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site!

Maruthi
Poker Customer Care


[/ QUOTE ]

I recieved the first email after I had responded "That made no sense."

Anyway, like I said, I am a paranoid son of a gun, and I really can't afford to lose $1,000 bucks because some overzealous administrator wakes up one morning and decides to purge all PT users and keep their money. What legal recourse would I have against an international company for doing something that may or may not violate the federal wire act?

[ClonexxSA]

I still do not see how they can possibly know you use PT, unless you are doing the auto request/import hand history. If you are paranoid about that, just play a session and then request the hand histories at the end and import them manually into PT.

As far as GT+ or PokerAce, I still don't see how they can possibly know you run it. It is an overlay on your screen, it doesn't send any information off your machine. Party Poker can NOT scan your machine for running processes unless they have that capability built into their software. If it were built into their software, they would have some severe privacy issues to deal with.

I just do not think it is possible for a site to tell if you use PT or PokerAce/GT+. They CAN tell if you are using a datamining app though as they constantly access hand history/instant hand history files from the site.

Party's TOS says they reserve the right to search your machine and do screen scraping to find out what you are running. I will get you that quote...

http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/legal_information.html

Section 7 says, in part:

[ QUOTE ]
You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods (including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player’s computer) and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs.

[/ QUOTE ]

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a paranoid son of a gun

[/ QUOTE ]

You got that right. First off, the person who emailed you is an idiot, Party poker has long worked with Pat (the developer of PT) and they have no problem with the use of PT. Second, it would be the stupidest business decision in the world to ban PT users out of the blue, its a huge percentage of their customers. Third, if some hypothetical power-hungry Party poker employee did decide to do this, they would start with the 100/200 players with 6 figures in their accounts, not you.

-DeathDonkey