Blind war River decision.

[DcifrThs]

bb is 14/10/2.46 very aggressive postflop once he decides he's there.

folded to me in the sb i raise 8h8x bb 3bets i cap we see a flop.

which comes AhJs4h i bet bb calls.

turn isQd i bet bb calls.

river is 2s for a board of AhJs4hQh2s.

river action?

-Barron

[URMeowed]

Check call and make a note on how he played the hand. Then take advantage of him in the same situation next time depending on what he had.

Meow.

[ggbman]

I vote check fold.

[MJS]

[ QUOTE ]
bb is 14/10/2.46 very aggressive postflop once he decides he's there.

folded to me in the sb i raise 8h8x bb 3bets i cap we see a flop.

which comes AhJs4h i bet bb calls.

turn isQd i bet bb calls.

river is 2s for a board of AhJs4hQh2s.

river action?

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't sound like aggressive play on his part on the flop or turn. Busted draw seems most likely. I vote check call.

[URMeowed]

Please play in my games.

Meow.

[mmcd]

Might be a little spewy if he's the suspicious type, but I'd checkraise here.

[ike]

If you call this turn and can't beat 88 at showdown, please play in mine.

[ike]

I like this better than check/call, but I think check/fold is the best option.

[etizzle]

what are you talking about? What hand does he have that we can beat if he bets the river?

or better yet, what hands can he have that we beat once he calls the flop and the turn is the Q?

[URMeowed]

The key here is that he's psycho aggressive postflop but this hand, he went passive on you. So tell me, what hands would a hyper aggressive just call you down with? And there you go...

Meow.

[URMeowed]

So you would raise or fold the turn with a flush draw?

Meow.

[etizzle]

so he 3 bet pf with 9hTh?

edit: i guess he can also have K9-7h but this is a very narrow range of hands that we beat, and I dont think K high bets the river to be honest.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
The key here is that he's psycho aggressive postflop but this hand, he went passive on you. So tell me, what hands would a hyper aggressive just call you down with? And there you go...

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]Jx/QK... thats about it. check/calling is yuck!
dcifr.
i like a checkraise ideally, but it seems like quite a parlay for him to valuebet JT/QK/whatever and fold to the CR. id prob check/fold here... and i never fold the river.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
so he 3 bet pf with 9hTh?

[/ QUOTE ]why the hell not.

[etizzle]

yeah i sorta forgot this was a blind war as i was bouncing around posts but my point remains that we cant call the river if the *only* hand we beat is 9Th.

[URMeowed]

What psycho aggressives do you know that will flat call any two suiteds out of the big blind when the small blind steal raises?

Meow.

[URMeowed]

How many hyper aggressives you know that won't flail the river with missed draws?

Meow.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
How many hyper aggressives you know that won't flail the river with missed draws?

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]how many hyper aggresives are going to callcall with a four flush. cmon catman... i thought you were a champion or something...

[URMeowed]

I personally think it's almost always incorrect to fold on the river in any head up preflop situation when you have any piece. Well to put a number on it, I would say around 80%. If you routinely make this fold, I, as well as others, will rob you blind. Believe me, cats are notoriously know to steal what is rightfully others and will pound at every situation against you. If you are going to give it up, the correct time is the turn as I probably would have. But once you get to the river, you have to go to showdown and make a note of what the opponent had and exploit it next time.

Meow.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
What psycho aggressives do you know that will flat call any two suiteds out of the big blind when the small blind steal raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when is 14/10/2.5 psycho-aggressive?

Also, if he is psycho aggressive--wouldn't he put in action with a flush draw on the flop/turn?

I like check-folding as a default or check-raising certain opponents who will bet-fold 2nd pair.

[URMeowed]

A turned gutshot is a draw to them. /images/graemlins/wink.gif How's that?

Meow.

[etizzle]

first, you said psycho agressive, noone else did. second, yes i understand that 9Th is often getting popped here preflop. But as likely as K9h or 9Th is to get reriaised preflop, they are even more likely to raise the flop after flopping the draw.

[URMeowed]

He said psycho aggressive postflop if he flops a piece.

Meow.

[URMeowed]

Plain and simple, when a player like this goes passive, it either means world's fair or air. There is no gray area.

Meow.

[flawless_victory]

look homie... i hear what youre saying... trust me, im not missing anything. i am a river payoff MFer but in this case check/calling is clearly -EV IMO.
if you are a rich fish who plays 1/2 "just for fun" and you really want to see the other guys hand... pay it off. you can say "QK?" after you call, and then when he rolls it everyone will be impressed that you are such a fantastic hand reader...

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Plain and simple, when a player like this goes passive, it either means world's fair or air. There is no gray area.

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]100% disagree.

[URMeowed]

Do you agree that when an aggressive post flop player goes passive on you, that he either has a monster or air?

Meow.

[etizzle]

no, it means for certain that he has a mediore hand he wants to show down for cheap.

The last thing he will have here is total air.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you agree that when an aggressive post flop player goes passive on you, that he either has a monster or air?

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]uhhhh... what the [censored] did i just say?

[URMeowed]

So you're telling me that he would TVB a mediocre hand on the river? If so, then he's getting check raised on the river everytime I have a good hand. And that's my point of check calling him down. It's for future hands.

Meow.

[URMeowed]

I didn't read your reply at the bottom. Sorry. Then please enlighten us as to the range of hand a normally aggressive post flop player would have when he goes passive.

Meow.

[flawless_victory]

a marginal made hand that he would like to showdown.

[URMeowed]

Then you won't have to worry about check calling on the river, right?

Meow.

[DcifrThs]

Heres what i was thinking:

i decided to check.

no worse hands are going to call here other than the rare, VERY rare small pair here that went totally passive.

also note that 14/xx/2.8 is just saying that since he is so tight, every time he enters the pot he's extremely agressive. but in the blinds, he'll be entering more pots and therefore you have to downgrade his AF relative to the situation.

after he caleld the turn i put him on a draw or a small odly played pair or a hand that is waiting till the river to raise or a total garbage K high hand or something liekt hat he's trying to manuever me off a hand (we have a history of many hands where i think he knows im capable of laying down as i do him)

so on the river, since no real worse hand will call id ecided to check.

but i can't let him bet the river after calling twice and win the pot w/ a bet if he has a draw.

so i decided to check call.

my problem was if he bets im very very very rarely good which sux because how can i check and give up the pot w/ a pair HU?? i dont like that.

but i did it.

RESULTS are that he checked behind and i won b/c he had Kh4x for 1pair of 4s k high.

-Barron

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you won't have to worry about check calling on the river, right?

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]there is no gaurantee that he wont TVB the river if you check...
i said that i like a river checkraise here in theory, however many just refuse to fold a pair on the end... they only value bet if they are gonna payoff. they dont want to get oputplayed and have the whole pot stolen. this why im going for the CR all day on the end with a big A+.
even if you whiff, you get free showdowns later.

[URMeowed]

[ QUOTE ]
my problem was if he bets im very very very rarely good which sux because how can i check and give up the pot w/ a pair HU?? i dont like that.


[/ QUOTE ]

But, if you play with this player quite a bit, you'll learn what kind of hands he'll go passive on you and what action he'll take when you show weakness on the river. This proves another point about tracker. Just because a player has a certain stat, doesn't mean all players with similar stats will play the same way in all situations. It is only a starting point. Remember that everyone.

Meow.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because a player has a certain stat, doesn't mean all players with similar stats will play the same way in all situations. It is only a starting point. Remember that everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you read the rest of my results post?

-Barron

[URMeowed]

Yes I did. It was meant for everyone else in my heated discussion I started. /images/graemlins/smile.gif So good to be back.

Meow.

[etizzle]

if TVB is thin value bet, then no, I dont think he will bet with a hand we beat. His most likely holdings are one pair, and almost certinaly not a lone ace. I dont think he calls down with TT-66, and he will most likely not bet the river with pairs less than Js.

This a situation where it looks probable that barron is check-calling with a pair <As, and there are 2 broadway cards on board. If he has some small pair he is not going to bet it, so I think this needs to be a check-fold.

[URMeowed]

Wouldn't it be prudent to bet a hand that can't beat DcifrThs's hand since you know that he's weak as a bluff? Isn't that a good possibility?

Meow.

[etizzle]

I think you can let him have this one if he bets.

The only draw that didnt get their to beat you was hearts, and how often do agressive postflop players not raise flush draws heads up in position? I think he is almost always raising hearts on the flop (or possibly the turn).

He has a pair or a str8 here every time, and his pair will always always beat yours if he bets it on the end. He will take the free showdown if its <Js.

Now, make this player someone world class and I think you might have to find a call.

[oreogod]

If he had any piece of this A,Q,J...you'd probably hear about it unless hes waiting for a river raise. Especially after he just calls your turn bet, while having a higher AF factor.

[etizzle]

villains passiveness in this hand strongly indicates to me he just wants to limp along to showdown.

If he wanted to bluff he would've raised the turn for the same price as betting the river. Note that this was his only chance to steal the pot at the time. The sort of thinking that led OP to want to call on the river makes this a bad spot for a bluff.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be prudent to bet a hand that can't beat DcifrThs's hand since you know that he's weak as a bluff? Isn't that a good possibility?

Meow.

[/ QUOTE ]no. i dont think its a good possibility. if this guy cant beat 88... hes prolly a'checkin.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
villains passiveness in this hand strongly indicates to me he just wants to limp along to showdown.

If he wanted to bluff he would've raised the turn for the same price as betting the river. Note that this was his only chance to steal the pot at the time. The sort of thinking that led OP to want to call on the river makes this a bad spot for a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent post.

but now that begs the question, shouldn't i be betting to get himt o fold hands he has that beat me that he wants to showdown cheaply? if not, why should i let him think that he gets free/cheap showdown from calling my flop/turn bets?

-Barron

[URMeowed]

Thus the dilemma that is poker.

Meow.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]

shouldn't i be betting to get himt o fold hands he has that beat me

[/ QUOTE ]LOLOL.

[etizzle]

well, this would be nice but I cant come up with any he could lay down here except TT and 99. The rest of the marginal hands (QJ, KJ, KT, QT) are all happy to show down by now.

There are some cases in hands like this though that a river bet can be a good spot for a bluff. Just not this one IMO(with this river).

[oreogod]

i was going to mention this, but I thought the +EVt move would be to check/call...to be honest my first inclination was to check/raise but I thought that would be a bit overdone.

This of course without me doing any math to back my answer up. But Im probably wrong and betting may be best.

All in all in reality Im most likely betting