Not capping w/ JJ...dunno why but...

[DcifrThs]

sb is 20/14/1.79.

i get JJ utg+1 and raise.

sb 3 bets and i call.

can't tell you why i did it but at the time i just did. its the first time in recent memory i can remember NOT capping in this spot w/ AK-TT, but i guess i felt id have the decision after the flop.

flop is QQ9 2 tone i have the 2 of the tone. sb bets out. i raise.

thoughts?
-Barron

[man]

I actually sort of like the preflop call against this guy once in a while. it gives you a chance to induce bluffs postflop while you look sort of weak. and that's a good thing.

with that in mind I'd rather call the flop and raise the [non-AK] turn. raising the flop kills your action too soon, I'm all about getting that extra .5 bet. no?

[tomahawk]

Interesting topic. I also do this sometimes, not really knowing why.

With TT/JJ it just feels like if you get a good flop you get much more money from just calling the threebet and letting villain keep initiative, whereas if you get a bad one you lose the same/maybe just slightly more.

Of course, you have the times where AK/AQ actually gives you credit for an overpair and folds the turn unimproved, missing out on the chance to outdraw you. Also I guess you could have some chance to make better hands fold once in a while by capping.

If someone with a clue could explain what they do and why it would be appreciated.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I have JJ... flop is QQ9 2 tone i have the 2 of the tone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean that your JJ is actually... SUITED?! nh.

Just kidding, I know what you meant. Raise now, raise the turn, whatever. Just as long as you give AK the chance to fold.

Good luck.
Eric

[URMeowed]

When it's a head up situation like this, I don't mind just flat calling JJ against thinking players or someone that I have played a lot of poker with. These are perfect times to throw a curveball since nothing is lost but a lot of gained. Notice that small bet lost preflop by not capping is gained right back on the flop. But what do I know, I'm just a cat.

Meow.

[ike]

Didn't I do something very much like this against you like 2 nights ago? Where I smoothcalled your sb 3bet with QQ preflop. Anyway, yah, I like it. I think I go for the turn raise a lot here, but the flop raise is fine too. The preflop call (rather than cap) is good when you're in position because the 3better will be autobetting any flop and you can then raise there if you want or try and go for the extra .5BB by waiting to raise the turn. Very often the preflop smoothcall will cause an opponent to misread your hand and go off for tons of bets postflop.
Earlier when we were talking about this situation you mentioned that you don't necesarilly want the opponent autobetting when an overcard falls. I actually disagree. Suppose the flop comes K72 and he leads, you raise and you're in at least as good a spot in exactly the same size pot as if you cap, he checks, and you bet the same board.

[Jeff W]

I prefer to cap pre flop because I don't want to end up making FTOP-incorrect folds on boards like AK6 when my opponent has 77.

For similar reasons, I get a little out of line capping middle pocket pairs in similar situations.

Ex: I raise 77 in CO,aggressive button 3-bets, blinds fold and I cap. This cap induces FTOP-incorrect folds on later streets--hands like KT on an AA5 board or 99 on a KT5 board.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Very often the preflop smoothcall will cause an opponent to misread your hand and go off for tons of bets postflop.
Earlier when we were talking about this situation you mentioned that you don't necesarilly want the opponent autobetting when an overcard falls. I actually disagree. Suppose the flop comes K72 and he leads, you raise and you're in at least as good a spot in exactly the same size pot as if you cap, he checks, and you bet the same board

[/ QUOTE ]

in fact, this exact situation is what sprung to mind.

occasionally calling a pf 3 bet w/ these hands is very deceptive and doesn't sacrifice THAT much value as it would if you called KK/AA

i think your play subconciously affected my decision here...now stop playing well against me!

-Barron

[DeeJ]

I cap here pf. Flop I'd also raise to try to eliminate AK or 77 etc. If I'm raised right back I can call down or toss it 'cuz you aren't gonna beat a pair of Queens easily, depends on the player. As aggressive as that, I would call down most of the time. I'm not going to like a king or ace on the turn though.

[siegfriedandroy]

Hey Decifer.

Interesting problem. I know this is the high stakes forum, but doesnt SSHE recommend only capping with pp's above JJ? I wonder if the line is drawn there for any of the reasons in this thread.

Anyway, I am intrigued by the high degree of aggression recommended here when overcards fall- the consensus seems to be a combination of raising/calling down, and definitely not an immediate fold on the flop.

I understand folding w/ an overcard probably seems weak. It does to me, too. But I recall from THFAP the section where Sklansky talks about playing pp's with overcards. Sklansky says that many players spew a lot of chips in this situation, and recommends folding as likely the best option, possibly making one bet into the flop, but giving up at a sign of further aggression.

Why the difference between this section (where Sklansky prescribes a more passive line), and the aggressive approach advocated in this thread? All I can think of is that you guys are talking about only a heads up situation, where TFHAP may be referring generally to more multiway pots? Any thoughts appreciated.

Also, why is this situation a definite flop/turn raise, and not a way ahead/behind call down situation?

[hockey1]

I smoothcall 3 bets with big pairs preflop HU at least as often as I cap them. Not only do I think it allows me to extract more value from the hand, but it has great meta-game advantages as well.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]

I smoothcall 3 bets with big pairs preflop HU at least as often as I cap them. Not only do I think it allows me to extract more value from the hand, but it has great meta-game advantages as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yay. I'm not alone.

[xniNja]

I almost always call in that spot with JJ unless I think my opponent is very weak and not only do I have him dominated, but my cap won't lose later pot equity. When I call, I'm hoping to spike a jack... or see a lowball flop hoping my opponent 3-bet AK.

With JJ you can't be a large favorite to almost anything he'd 3-bet you with...

Note to all cappers: 20/14/1.79 probably is pretty solid... Believe me if you raise UTG and I 3-bet you, I've got JJ beat & most people with those or better stats probably do too.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Believe me if you raise UTG and I 3-bet you, I've got JJ beat & most people with those or better stats probably do too.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you hare simply too tight.

you would have 83% of my UTG raising hands beat if you 3bet me w/ JJ.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Why the difference between this section (where Sklansky prescribes a more passive line), and the aggressive approach advocated in this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

DS wrote that for games before the internet. meaning way way more passive overall play.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, why is this situation a definite flop/turn raise, and not a way ahead/behind call down situation?


[/ QUOTE ]

why on earth would i want AK to get a free card. lower 3betting pairs may call me down anyways since the board was 2tone. also, since i DO raise AJs here i would like to see if he folds, which i want him to, and which he did.

-Barron

[Senor Choppy]

He has a PFR of 14. He's 3-betting with a lot of hands that are crushed by JJ.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
He has a PFR of 14. He's 3-betting with a lot of hands that are crushed by JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

is it really that high....lemme go check the ol PT database...unless you datamined the 1/2 game, in which case you're clearly right...

double check: 12.81!!! so HA 10.21% from UTG though so if you are only 3betting me w/ JJ or better, haha on you.

-Barron

[Senor Choppy]

Talking about your opponent in this hand.

You're too much of a rock to 3-bet with anything but aces /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]

You're too much of a rock to 3-bet with anything but aces /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. I folded KK from the BB to barron's raise first in from the button yesterday. It was clearly correct.

[mach3]

I routinely do this in higher limit shorthanded games where people go bonkers w/ A-high and top pair. I especially like it on the button when a blind 3 bets you thinking you are stealing w/ garbage.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
also, since i DO raise AJs here i would like to see if he folds, which i want him to, and which he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if he has TT?

[adios]

The only hands you want to fold that you have beat here is AK or a flush draw (maybe JTs but that hand is unlikely given your JJ) and I doubt if either folds for a single raise on the flop too often. Would you raise the flop in this situation if you had a Q or even a full house? Do you think he would likely put you on AA or KK? Doubtful but possible.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
and I doubt AK folds for a single raise on the flop too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? He may well be drawing dead, and has some nasty reverse implied odds along with his 6 outs. I'd say AK folds to a raise here plenty..

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and I doubt AK folds for a single raise on the flop too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? He may well be drawing dead, and has some nasty reverse implied odds along with his 6 outs. I'd say AK folds to a raise here plenty..

[/ QUOTE ]

id say AK wouldn't.

-Barron

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and I doubt AK folds for a single raise on the flop too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? He may well be drawing dead, and has some nasty reverse implied odds along with his 6 outs. I'd say AK folds to a raise here plenty..

[/ QUOTE ]

id say AK wouldn't.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

What line would you take as Villian with AK here?
Also, re-reading my post, I overstated the liklihood. I'm just thinking it's possible, and those are some reasons he might.

[DanZ]

I may be in the minority here, but this post was a little surprising:

I can't imagine why you would want to cap it with jacks preflop. Is he on average rasing with such a weak hand that you want to tie him to the hand until the river? If so, he is probably so overaggressive I'd rather trap him anyway.

I also don't see what raising does for you on this flop. If I felt I could raise, I would wait for the turn to drop his AK. Raising the flop should announce a) you don't have a queen and b) you have a middle pocket pair to most players, which is bad because it's exactly what you have.

Dan Z.

[adios]

I don't think many players would put a flop raiser as someone they're drawing dead against. Why not wait for the turn to raise with a Q? I think a raise on the turn is a better play but I might be tempted to call again on the turn and let someone who's betting a marginal hand keep coming. I don't think the villan in this example had much of a hand and I'd guess that his folding was not a mistake.