TT - Textbook SSHE, Right?

[arsixsixwy]

Only read I had was on MP1 -- he had check/raised a suited flop with top pair (ace) and a jack-high flush draw. Not especially helpful in this hand, I don't think.

Comments on all streets appreciated. Thanks, guys!

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Raise the flop. Waiting for the turn is pointless as the only draw that might fold is 36 or something unlikely.

[kapw7]

Does SSHE say not to raise the flop?

[Redd]

I'd raise the flop. You've got an overpair and a huge equity edge, so I'd push it's value while it's still an overpair.

[arsixsixwy]

With most of the field already committing themselves to one bet, I'm not folding any of them by raising. Yes, a raise would probably be for value but with two hearts on the board, a somewhat coordinated flop for a wheel, and a bunch of overcards that could ruin my hand mean I will likely have a much bigger edge on the turn when a blank comes. Although a blank did not come, it was checked to me.

Anybody think I can fold on the river?

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
Although a blank did not come, it was checked to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why it cost us money to wait until the turn. There is a bit of protection value too, since you can get rid of one player. I'm less worried about flush/straight draws and more worried about people calling and hitting with overcards. Like in SSHE's "Two overpair hands," it's much better to wait with a less vulnerable hand like AA than TT.

Without reads, I think the river's a good call. This could be a bluff 1 time in 13.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
This could be a bluff 1 time in 13.

[/ QUOTE ]

whats the 1 In 13 mean? Explain please i dont get where these numbers come from?

Thanks.
p.s. As said, Bet the flop.

[arsixsixwy]

[ QUOTE ]
Like in SSHE's "Two overpair hands," it's much better to wait with a less vulnerable hand like AA than TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm.. Go back and read that section again. You have it backwards.

[Bradyams]

I don't mind it. Like in the example in SSH there are a lot of cards you don't want to see on the turn...any /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9, J, Q, K or A. It may be better to wait for a safe turn where our equity jumps up quite a bit, and then raise.

Of course that turn card ins't what you were looking for, but the actions indicate no kings are out there, so that's an easy bet.

River card sucks, and so does CO waking up all of a sudden, but I'd call this as well.

[arsixsixwy]

The pot is about 13 BB large and I have to call 1 BB. If I win the hand at least once out of every 14 times (not 13, that's a mistake by the original poster) I encounter this situation, it's not a -EV play.

Hope this helps.

[arsixsixwy]

Also, does anybody like a raise on the river?

[Catt]

I think waiting until the turn is fine in this hand. I also think you almost certainly lost to trip 9s, but I call this river, too.

Edit: Cross-posted with your reply just before my post. Raising the river sucks.

[Bradyams]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, does anybody like a raise on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I hate it.

You are pretty much hoping he's bluffing this river. If you three-bet he either folds his bluff, or calls/caps with a better hand.

[Catt]

I decided that my "Raising the river sucks" could use more elaboration.

There's a not insignificant chance that you don't have the best hand here. Furthermore, you have one player to act behind you. Raising potentially folds out the player behind you, and results in the river lead either folding his crap (you gain nothing by raising), three-betting you (you lose three bets instead of one), calling with the best hand (you lose two bets), or least common of all the above calling with a worse hand (you gain a bet). Raising this river is a bad play. Call, hoping your hand is good and you collect an overcall from the player behind.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although a blank did not come, it was checked to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why it cost us money to wait until the turn. There is a bit of protection value too, since you can get rid of one player. I'm less worried about flush/straight draws and more worried about people calling and hitting with overcards. Like in SSHE's "Two overpair hands," it's much better to wait with a less vulnerable hand like AA than TT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure SSHE says the opposite.
I would still raise this flop though.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure SSHE says the opposite.
I would still raise this flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I've actually said the same thing before, and I've loaned out my copy of SSHE. Could someone refresh my memory - how many players are in the pot in that hand? And am I recalling correctly that Hero was last to act in the SSHE example?

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure SSHE says the opposite.
I would still raise this flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I've actually said the same thing before, and I've loaned out my copy of SSHE. Could someone refresh my memory - how many players are in the pot in that hand? And am I recalling correctly that Hero was last to act in the SSHE example?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the "last to act" part is really important.
If you have TT waiting for the turn is great because you lose less when the turn hurts you and you trap the field for an extra BB when the turn is a blank.
If you had AA your hand is simply too strong to pass up raising on the flop.

Here we're not last to act relative to the bettor though and I really want to knock out UTG if he has AJ or KQ or something.

[Bradyams]

In the SSH example I believe there was the original bettor, 2 or 3 callers, and Hero was last to act. Mr. Miller advised calling the flop bet, and raising a safe turn.

I as well don't have SSH handy, but I'm pretty sure the example is close to that. Regardless, I think the OP's situation is a clear-cut example of waiting for a safe turn card to raise.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
Here we're not last to act though and I really want to knock out the guy behind me if he has AJ or KQ or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking the same thing; we also know that this guy likely has UI overs from his PFR, which I really like getting rid of.

Also, we decided to wait until a safe turn card but the way it worked out a scary card hits and we end up having to bet anyways. So we didn't seem to gain much by waiting.

I'd be interested hearing more opinions on the flop; right now, I'd be much more convinced of waiting if we were last to act rather than having someone with 6 outs immediately behind us.

[toddw8]

In the SSH example, there is a bet, a raise, and two cold calls facing hero on the flop. The main difference between the example hand in SSH and the OP's hand is the protection value of a raise. I'm certain that NPA Miller purposefully set up the example hand so that a raise would serve no use in protecting hero's hand. In fact, at the end of the "Two Overpair" section, Mr. Miller states, as one of the prerequisites to making this type of play, that it is only useful when a raise will not induce your opponents to fold.

IMHO, there is a very good chance that a flop raise will help protect the OP's hand. UTG is almost certainly on overcards, and unless I have a read on him that leads me to believe he won't lay them down facing two bets on the flop, I want him out of this hand now.

If the original bet had come from UTG instead of MP1, then I think this is the perfect place to wait for the turn. As is, however, I think you are making a mistake by letting UTG see the next card cheaply.

[eviljeff]

on the flop this is a clear raise. what are you calling for?

I might be able to fold the river depending on CO.

[eviljeff]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, does anybody like a raise on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, no. what is calling our raise that we beat?

[aK13]

I would only wait think turn raise is ok here if:

1. The pot were slightly bigger.
2. There are more players.
3. UTG hadn't raised.