Conversation with a Bar tender

[beta1607]

I went out with some buddies yesterday afternoon and the bar tender was reading TOP so I figured I would talk to him about poker since where I am from there are not many people to have real intelligent conversations about poker. The bar tender said that he got the majority of his income from playing cards and since I had a similar experiance I felt that I could relate in some way. I want your opinions on the following statements that he made as I disagreed with all of them:
1. 7 stud is an old mans game
2. TOP is outdated
3. In 7stud you always lose one extra bet when you are behind because there are more streets.
4. Limit games in general can just be played on auto-pilot without really thinking.

[TomBrooks]

I disagree with 2 somewhat and 4 a lot.

I don't know about 1 and 3.

[Bartholow]

Stud is an old man's game. Obviously a blanket statement, but let's say "Stud's demographics lean towards older males." Or something like that.

I'm sure there are some things in TOP that are outdated, but they are not the actual substance. It's still the best overall poker book around.

The third statement as presented is clearly outlandish. He really said "always"??

I think there are more automatic decisions in big bet games actually, but saying either can be played on auto-pilot is silly.


You should ask him about the games he plays in. They must be soft /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[BeerMoney]

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1. 7 stud is an old mans game

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I really don't know.. If you go and play at foxwoods, atl. city, or vegas, you would definitely be given this impression. I have no idea who is sitting behind the monitors of the people I play on party. I don't think it really matters though.

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2. TOP is outdated

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It could probably use some revising, and have less examples dealing with Razz, 5 card stud, and draw.

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3. In 7stud you always lose one extra bet when you are behind because there are more streets.


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Of course you never really lose a full bet unless you are drawing dead, but you also gain here when you're the one who is ahead, which is usually the case if you play solid hands on 3rd.

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4. Limit games in general can just be played on auto-pilot without really thinking.

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This is true, but, obviously not an optimal strategy.

[blackize]

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Quote:

4. Limit games in general can just be played on auto-pilot without really thinking.



This is true, but, obviously not an optimal strategy.

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This is only true when playing against poor opponents. Against thinking opponents who are capable of being tricky and exploiting you, you absolutely cannot go on autopilot.

Same goes for shorthanded play against decent players, it's tough to go on autopilot there.

[frappeboy]

1) I'm 21 and play stud almost exclusively.
2) TOP is NOT outdated and NEVER will be unless they change the rules of poker.. Maybe the variations of poker Sklansky uses to explain things are outdated, but the underlying concepts are not.
3) This is actually not true because the drawing hand almost always has the advantage on the river.
4) I don't think this is true either, especially in stud.. The way you play a pair of kings can change drastically based on upcards, number of players, and who those players are.

It sounds like this bartender doesn't know what he is talking about..

Oh and don't you know, everyone who plays poker derives most of their income from it.....

[randomstumbl]

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It sounds like this bartender doesn't know what he is talking about..


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It sounds like you lack empathy.

Stud tables, especially the 1-5 or 2-10 spread, are often populated by much older folks. Obviously, some young people are coming into the game, but it's still a much older crowd on average.

Theory of Poker is outdated like Super System 1 is outdated. A lot of the games aren't played anymore, but the framework for decision making is still the same.

The bartender's 3rd point seems mostly like a vast oversimplification of the idea that there's an extra betting round. It's not really correct, but it depends what he was really trying to say.

I play stud/8 on autopilot constantly. If I have a pretty decent understanding of each player's general strategy, I don't put a whole lot of work into figuring out their exact starting hands. Of course, this only works when the game is filled with a bunch of straightforward players, but that's the reward of good game selection.

[BeerMoney]

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Oh and don't you know, everyone who plays poker derives most of their income from it.....

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This is what I wanted to comment on too..

What about the guys who play limit and "double up everytime they sit down" or "win almost every time they play..."

I think the reality of this is that people who play online know how much they win or lose, while those who cruise from home game to homegame probably have a selective memory of those nights when they hit big and forget the losing nights a little easier. Or, have played for a month, and have done nothing but flop sets and turn flushes.. Ahhhhhh poker's so easy.

[hurlyburly]

I bet his favorite term is "fold equity". You'd probably have made $100 playing him HU on the bar and just check-calling...

As far as TOP, people who can't understand concepts without using hold'em examples totally rock!

[kschellenger]

[ QUOTE ]

1. 7 stud is an old mans game
2. TOP is outdated
3. In 7stud you always lose one extra bet when you are behind because there are more streets.
4. Limit games in general can just be played on auto-pilot without really thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I am 21 and play Party's $30 STTs daily. But, the majority of stud players are older gentlemen
2. TOP isn't outdated. But, at lower limits and with the influx of casual players, I think some presumptions of TOP can be lost.
3. You don't always lose one extra bet when you are behind. But, even if you do always lose one extra bet when you are behind you will gain one extra bet when you are ahead.
4. Limit games can be played on autopilot, but not optimally and since we are posting and discussing hands/theory, we are clearly here to play optimally.

[Andy B]

The stud crowd tends to be older. The Omaha crowd does too, for that matter. I'm 37, which might seem old to some of you. When I play stud, I'm usually the youngest guy at the table, often by more than a decade.

TOP remains the best of the how-to poker books, and if you fail to study it and learn from it, you do so at your own peril. The fact that he uses some games that aren't played much anymore doesn't make it any less useful, and I actually think it's good to "cross-train" some. The simple fact of the matter is that razz is the best game to demonstrate some concepts that come up in other games.

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3. In 7stud you always lose one extra bet when you are behind because there are more streets.

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This is really off the mark. In hold'em, you have a lot of confrontations where you're drawing to two or three outs. In stud, because the hands are independent, it is much easier for the guy who is behind to catch up. Many more confrontations are of the 60:40 variety. There are more betting rounds, but it's not like the guy who's behind is losing a full bet every round.

There are a lot of situations in limit poker that are fairly routine. The same is true of NLHE, though. Situations where I really have to think are relatively few and far between. This is well, because I am a slow thinker. I have to do my thinking away from the table.