Live 2/5 Pair + Straight Flush Draw.

[LearnedfromTV]

Loose 2/5 game @ Trump in Gary, Indiana. Hero has ~700. Main Villain (BB) has ~ 300. Six way limped pot, Hero has As3s on the button.

Villain is solid for this game, I haven't seen him do anything tricky. He sees too many flops but since he's BB that isn't really relevant here. Pretty tight postflop. I'm seen him make two large bets and both times he showed down a good made hand. As the BB he could literally have anything.

Flop is 4s 3d 2s.

BB bets 25. While I'm trying to decide how much to raise, MP goes allin for 50. Everyone else folds. I decide to call, thinking that I now have to make my hand to win and would rather let BB come along. Good? Bad?

BB comes over the top for 100 more. I think he needs at least two pair to make this bet, especially given the allin player. Maybe 55 and I suppose a naked middle pair is possible. It's an idiotic semibluff if it is one, and I don't think he's an idiot. JJ or better unlikely given preflop. There is 280 in the pot, I'm in position, have somewhere between 9 and 17 outs, and almost certainly no FE. He has about 130 left, Which probably goes in on a blank turn. Push/Call/Fold?

[AZK]

allin...yawn...

[LearnedfromTV]

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allin...yawn...

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If that's all you are going to say, why respond at all? To look smart to everyone else who knows how obvious it is?

It isn't obvious to me. If I go allin I am betting ~ 230 to win ~640. I only have ten outs against a set and nine against a straight, plus a set has a redraw.

No one is obligated to help me learn, but yawning is pointless.

[Sandstone]

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It isn't obvious to me.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker

[JasonP530]

If youre calling 230 to win 630 you have correct odds against a set. You only have 10 outs vs a made 5 high straight. A made 6 high straight leaves you with just about correct odds.

[LearnedfromTV]

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It isn't obvious to me.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker

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There are a ton of live 2-5 hands posted in this forum. It is also the forum I usually read. I suppose 2-5 is the crossover betweem SS and MS. I do ok in that game and hope to improve enough to play the 5-10 at the same casino soon enough, so why would I choose SS forum?

[SpaceAce]

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allin...yawn...

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And you're the person responsible for improving the quality of this forum?

SpaceAce

[LearnedfromTV]

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If youre calling 230 to win 630 you have correct odds against a set. You only have 10 outs vs a made 5 high straight. A made 6 high straight leaves you with just about correct odds.

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This gets exactly at the thing I don't understand. I'm not calling 230, I'm calling 100 and betting the last 130 myself. If I am sure he's going to call, I only want to raise when that last 130 is going in against a hand I am favored against. But I am .368 v 44, .383 v 22, .423 v A5, .394 v. 65 (slightly worse against straight if he holds a spade), and a slight favorite against 2 pair (.51 to .55 depending on whether he has a 3).

I understand the basic principle of getting it all-in with two cards to come to avoid having to deal with a blank turn and to guarantee getting paid when you hit. But it seems that here I am making a large bet (the 130) as an underdog. Calling doesn't seem great either, since I may or may not be getting immediate odds and he's likely to bet a blank turn. Folding seems wrong too.

If someone explains to me why my thinking is flawed, I'll listen. I don't post very many hands because I don't play enough that seem interesting enough. This was a hand where I didn't know what to do at the time, think I probably made the wrong play, and I think I could learn from thinking about it and hearing from other players. I thought that was what the forum was here for.

[TomCollins]

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allin...yawn...

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This is really really easy. It seems you aren't comfortable having the much money in on a draw, even a damn good draw.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

You said it yourself, you have no fold equity so his last $130 is going into the pot now or on the turn.

So you'd rather it went in the flop since on the turn your could be drawing to just your str8 flush outs which would make the turn call of $130 to win $630 a bad call.

Your also forgetting some other hands he could have 42/43/32 or a pair of 5's.

I think the suggestion to read the Small Stakes NL forum was due to the somewhat basic nature of your question.

Once you call that money is no longer yours. You have to pretend your playing some weird table game where there is going to be a pay off $630 and you have to bet $230 to win it

Later,
MarkV.

[xorbie]

If you are 100% sure he is pushing a blank turn no matter what, push. If you are 100% sure you have no fold equity but that he might check the turn then call.

[creedofhubris]

Let's begin by saying that if there's any chance your main opponent has a draw as well, you are in dynamite shape with your pair and draw to the nut flush, and that alone is a good reason to push the flop.

But we'll assume he's got a made hand.

Your initial flop call (of the $50 bet) is defensible, because there is some room in the stacks.

Once the reraise comes down:

OK, the only possibly advantage of just calling here would be if you're planning to fold a blank turn, or planning to fold if the board pairs.

Let's see if folding to a blank turn is a good idea.

It will cost you $130 on the turn to win $480. That's 3.7:1. So you need about 10 outs to continue. Do you have ten outs? You have seven clean outs to the nut flush, and some other tainted ones; let's call it four on average (the two pairing the board flush outs are often good, the three straight outs are good when the flush outs aren't, and sometimes in their own right, the three aces are rarely good.). So, calling is slightly +EV.

If you're gonna call any turn, then raising allin can't be a bad move.

Now, let's think about folding to a board pair on the turn. This is the only possible instance where I think you might consider a flop smoothcall and turn fold, since you're now drawing to a one-outer if your opponent has a boat. You have to discount some of your outs because of opponent's possible holding.

So, smooth calling and folding if the board pairs is a conceivable (if weakweakweak) play, but so is raising allin, because of the chance that villain is putting pressure on you with a draw himself.

All in all, I suggest gambling it up in a good loose game, particularly if you can rebuy; it makes you look like one of the guys.

Make sure to smile as you say "I need help!" after raising allin.

[LearnedfromTV]

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If you are 100% sure he is pushing a blank turn no matter what, push. If you are 100% sure you have no fold equity but that he might check the turn then call.

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Let's begin by saying that if there's any chance your main opponent has a draw as well, you are in dynamite shape with your pair and draw to the nut flush, and that alone is a good reason to push the flop.

But we'll assume he's got a made hand.

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I was about 80%-90% sure he'd push a blank turn but I thought there was some chance he would check, then pay off if I hit the river. He should have put me on a draw and pushed but I figured there was a small chance he would check and that I had nothing to lose by giving him the chance. The board pairing could have scared him if it gave him 3 pair or he had a straight. I was 100% sure he would call a push.

The main reason I was so sure he had a made hand, besides that he had played very straightforward and I was the one with the big draw, was that if he succeeded in pushing me out he still had to beat the allin player, who figured to have some kind of made hand. The same reason i had called the first raise instead of pushing. Didn't think he was tricky enough to try to push out the nut flush draw with a weaker flush draw alone, maybe with 65s.

I figured I was the only one who, if I saw the river, would be able to fold and save money. I figured the pot was too big for him to fold if I hit, but clearly I could fold a pair of threes if I get to see the river free and missed. So I didn't like it but I called, planning to call a push if the turn blanked.

Hit the 6 of spades on the turn. He checked, I checked. Blank river. He checked, I pushed, he called with 43.

Even though I got the money, I don't like the way I played this, especially on the turn. I gave him the free card on the turn to be sure to get paid off, but a fourth spade or boat card either kills my action or loses me the pot. If he has a straight it's not as bad, but there's a lot more ways he can have outs than not.

I know a lot of people have said or would say, if they thought the hand was worth commenting on, autopush but I don't like that it means often putting in money as an underdog without ANY FE. Normally this raise stands a chance of getting called by TPTK or something else it crushes or of folding out a hand the big draw beats but that has odds to call... my read was pretty strong that Villains range of hands was beating me (although it turns out his actual hand wasn't). Since I don't like calling either, I think a push was probably best, but I don't think it's automatic.

Thanks for the comments those who did, any more are welcome.