London Police screwed up big time

[Morpheus]

Check this out. I just saw this.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050724/ap_on_re_eu/britain_underground

What should we do about this ? Police killed an innocent man.
Someone needs to be blamed. Should we put the police on trial now or should we just walk into the policeman's house and shoot him on sight like he did that man. What a bunch of idiots. BTW, I hate police. Police shot that man because they are afraid that people will find out that police are basically useless against bombing attacks. They can't stand for people to find out. People will be asking for their guns next. We can't have armed citizens walking the street so we kill anyone of ethnicity on sight. Yay !

BTW, they have a shoot to kill policy over there now. If you look like a terrorist, you just might die in london sometime soon. I declare terrorists the winner. They basically have gotten what they wanted. England is becoming communist.

[ClaytonN]

Meh, dunno yet. If you have multiple police chasing you with guns and you decide to run away or provoke them, then you deserve to be shot at given the circumstances in the column you linked.

However, if the shooting was not provoked, ie there he is lets gun him down, then [censored] is gonna fly.

[Morpheus]

Well, if he people were following you as you left your house and then you went to the subway and people were still following you , don't you think you might wonder why they were following you. You may either , 1) confront them and ask them what the hell they want 2) flee .

He chose to flee so he's dead.

[Sightless]

are you guys serious?

first police were not in their uniform so he couldnt have known who they were... Second he might not have been able to speak/understand english... and he might have just panicked and became afraid and just ran.. wouldnt you be afraid if 5 guys started chasing after you with guns...He could have thought that they were terroists themselfs

I understand why people would not want to blame police for this one... but to blame the guy is just DUMB

[Morpheus]

Didn't you read my posts, sightless ? UM, I'm on your side man and I believe I have been arguing your point. I agree. Police were out of uniform and following him when he left his house since they already had him under surveillance. They continued to follow him and when he ran, they shot him. Wow, what great police work. (I'm being sarcastic in this whole thread basically)

[Sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't you read my posts, sightless ? UM, I'm on your side man and I believe I have been arguing your point. I agree. Police were out of uniform and following him when he left his house since they already had him under surveillance. They continued to follow him and when he ran, they shot him. Wow, what great police work. (I'm being sarcastic in this whole thread basically)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I was not talkign about you...

[PorscheNGuns]

Yeah man, [censored] the police! Cops should all be put on trial for war crimes, man. Seriously like, if there's anything I hate more than cops, oh wait one sec, let me hit this joint....ahhh, yeah so if there's anything I hate more than cops its like, Republicans, ya know man? Dude and like did I say how much I just enjoy smoking pot and listening to crunchy grooves? Jobs are for capitalist pigs, man.

-Matt

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah man, [censored] the police! Cops should all be put on trial for war crimes, man. Seriously like, if there's anything I hate more than cops, oh wait one sec, let me hit this joint....ahhh, yeah so if there's anything I hate more than cops its like, Republicans, ya know man? Dude and like did I say how much I just enjoy smoking pot and listening to crunchy grooves? Jobs are for capitalist pigs, man. -Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong forum

[stabn]

Keep your political musings out of OOT please.

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
England is becoming communist.

[/ QUOTE ]First, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with Communism in any way.

Second, it's kinda funny reading the posts of people who praised and crowed about this 'shoot first' policy just yesterday.

Edit: Actually, it looks like many of them have been removed. This site has such weird moderation.

[SackUp]

eh, the dude probably clubs baby seals or rapes 4 yr olds. he probably deserved to be shot for something.

[smokingrobot]

I just dont understand why he chose to flee. If you're not guilty, there's no need to run.

Its odd.

Edit:

I mean, i remember when i had gone home during college and someone thought i was robbing my own house. So as im walking out all these lights are being flashed in my eyes and people are screaming at me to get my hands in the air and i have guns pointed at me. At first i thought it was some joke my brother was playing on me, but then i saw like 5 or 6 cops show up.

I didnt run, i just sorta stood there smiling, put my hands in the air, and explained to them that i live in the house and i stopped by for the weekend unannounced (my folks were out of town, and the neighbors called the cops on me).

Maybe he didnt think they were cops and he thought he was being profiled for being of a specific ethnicity? who knows. it is a shame if he's innocent. it'll really cause such social havoc.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont understand why he chose to flee. If you're not guilty, there's no need to run.

It's odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not. They were in plain clothes. A lot of people would run if a bunch of normal looking guys pulled out guns and started trying to catch you.

GoT

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont understand why he chose to flee. If you're not guilty, there's no need to run.

It's odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think there's a little more to it than that

if i was in korea and they had a "shoot to kill" policy towards caucasian people - i'd be [censored] scared and probably [censored] my pants before they shot me

[New001]

Imagine yourself as a minority or as a foreigner. Now, imagine you're in a country (after terrorist attacks not too unlike what we had here) where you, because of your appearance, may be subject to any of a number of hate crimes. See if your reaction to plainclothes cops with guns running at you changes.

The police here obviously thought this guy was dangerous, but if they had been watching him, they should have known differently. Whatever prompted them to kill him, it sucks either way.

[smokingrobot]

Dont get me wrong, i didnt say that to implying the words "bullshit" behind the word innocent.

Believe me, I think its [censored] up what happened.

[New001]

Never said you did. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm referring to the "if you aren't innocent, why run?" thought that a lot of people have. The reply to your post kinda ended after the first paragraph, it wasn't really clear.

[fluff]

[ QUOTE ]
when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they pinned him to the ground, then shot him 5 times in the head and torso?

British police is clearly insane. I'm scratching London off my list of places to visit. Barbarians.

[Lazymeatball]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
England is becoming communist.

[/ QUOTE ]First, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with Communism in any way.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about the Trotskyite mayor of London, Ken Livingstone?

[krazyace5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they pinned him to the ground, then shot him 5 times in the head and torso?

British police is clearly insane. I'm scratching London off my list of places to visit. Barbarians.

[/ QUOTE ]

The police need to be held responsible for murder if this is the case.

Whether he would have been guilty or not how can they shoot someone who is no longer a threat?

I too would run from some people in regular clothes yelling and chasing me, especially when the bombings by terrorists just took place recently.

[RacersEdge]

Just out of curiosity, why isn't this whole thread moved to the News forum?

[RunDownHouse]

Yeah, this should definitely be moved out of OOT.

But I completely understand and sympathize with the police. You have an ongoing investigation about these terrorists, you follow a suspect to the subway, where he proceeds to jump the barriers and ignore you. He's got a coat on with who knows what underneath, and he's headed right for a train full of people. You catch a lucky break when he falls, but he's still ignoring you and could have his hand on the detonator.

Its akin to Iraqis speeding through American checkpoints. It sucks when a car with a bunch of innocent people gets shot up, but what are the kids at the checkpoint supposed to do when a car - indistinguishable from others that may be carrying bombs - ignore their warnings and just keep coming?

I'm sure those officers weren't giggling with glee that they shot an Arab. They're going to have to remember shooting a man at point-blank range the rest of their lives.

[HopeydaFish]

There are four possibilities here:

1) He got freaked out when guys in street clothes pulled out guns and started shouting at him, and his first instinct was to bolt.

2) He thought the police were after him for some other illegal activities that he was involved in.

3) He knew that he wasn't guilty of anything, knew that the police were overreacting, and jumped the turnstyle while wearing bulky clothing in order to get them to overreact, so that he could sue them. He obviously didn't anticipate getting shot in the head.

4) Same as #3, except he was hoping to get killed -- Suicide by cop.

My money is on #1, but #4 has been known to happen.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
What should we do about this

[/ QUOTE ]
Whine a lot, and spout lots of weasel words.
Oh, my bad, you did that already.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm scratching London off my list of places to visit. Barbarians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the English are barbarians. Er, what language are you speaking again?

[stigmata]

Stockwell ain't pretty. Having lived there, I can say that the best thing to do when you start getting chased by some random people is to run (whether they claim to be police or not).

The guy did absolutely nothing wrong. It was a pretty unfortunate string of events - police suspected wrong house, out comes an electrician wearing a belt that looks like a bomb, he runs away from dodgy looking men in a rough part of london, and then runs onto tube which is the target of terrorist campaign.

You can see why the police made the mistake, but there has to be some sort of enquiry. It is suprising that they tailed the guy for a full 10 minutes without apprehending him. Then they panicked when he got on the tube.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
There are four possibilities here:

2) He thought the police were after him for some other illegal activities that he was involved in.


[/ QUOTE ]

It turns out that he was breaking the law after all, and rather than face up to his crime, he ran.

Unlucky circumstances for him, but he acted as the guilty person he was, and the police acted with good motives.

[partygirluk]

His Visa was out of date (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm)

[TylerD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are four possibilities here:

2) He thought the police were after him for some other illegal activities that he was involved in.


[/ QUOTE ]

It turns out that he was breaking the law after all, and rather than face up to his crime, he ran.

Unlucky circumstances for him, but he acted as the guilty person he was, and the police acted with good motives.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how the police could have avoided this, unforunately.

[diebitter]

Apparently British muslims are frightened they might get shot by the police if they are out of line etc, it just said on BBC radio.

I'm not touching this one with a barge pole.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are four possibilities here:

2) He thought the police were after him for some other illegal activities that he was involved in.


[/ QUOTE ]

It turns out that he was breaking the law after all, and rather than face up to his crime, he ran.

Unlucky circumstances for him, but he acted as the guilty person he was, and the police acted with good motives.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how the police could have avoided this, unforunately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither can I, although I wonder why they didnt apprehend him on the bus, but I guess they were worried he would have blown his bomb there.

For those saying they wont come to London now cos of the police doing this I really dont understand how if the bombs havent put you off this has.

[mybrainssore]

[ QUOTE ]

The police need to be held responsible for murder if this is the case.

Whether he would have been guilty or not how can they shoot someone who is no longer a threat?

I too would run from some people in regular clothes yelling and chasing me, especially when the bombings by terrorists just took place recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is hypothetical...

What IF he was a suicide bomber and could detonate the bomb while pinned down?

Do you wait half an hour why you check this guy out, or do you stop him potentially killing everyone on the train?

It's a tough call and thankfully it is not one I'll ever have to make.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The police need to be held responsible for murder if this is the case.

Whether he would have been guilty or not how can they shoot someone who is no longer a threat?

I too would run from some people in regular clothes yelling and chasing me, especially when the bombings by terrorists just took place recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is hypothetical...

What IF he was a suicide bomber and could detonate the bomb while pinned down?

Do you wait half an hour why you check this guy out, or do you stop him potentially killing everyone on the train?

It's a tough call and thankfully it is not one I'll ever have to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely. The (police didn't just shoot without warning, they (apparently) approached him, made it known they were police, and he ran away from then, jumped over the ticket barriers and ran towards a train. The SOP is for the officers to shout "POLICE STOP!" whilst pursuing him. I find it very, very hard to believe that he didn't know that the gunmen chasing him were police. It was unfortunate that he was wearing a large overcoat. If he wasn't, perhaps the police could have assessed he was of minimal imminent danger and spared his life. But as the situation unfolded, I would have been disappointed with the guys protecting my city if they didn't kill this guy.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The police need to be held responsible for murder if this is the case.

Whether he would have been guilty or not how can they shoot someone who is no longer a threat?

I too would run from some people in regular clothes yelling and chasing me, especially when the bombings by terrorists just took place recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is hypothetical...

What IF he was a suicide bomber and could detonate the bomb while pinned down?

Do you wait half an hour why you check this guy out, or do you stop him potentially killing everyone on the train?

It's a tough call and thankfully it is not one I'll ever have to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely. The (police didn't just shoot without warning, they (apparently) approached him, made it known they were police, and he ran away from then, jumped over the ticket barriers and ran towards a train. The SOP is for the officers to shout "POLICE STOP!" whilst pursuing him. I find it very, very hard to believe that he didn't know that the gunmen chasing him were police. It was unfortunate that he was wearing a large overcoat. If he wasn't, perhaps the police could have assessed he was of minimal imminent danger and spared his life. But as the situation unfolded, I would have been disappointed with the guys protecting my city if they didn't kill this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention that this guy left the same block of flats that they believed the bombers lived at (same block, different flat), came out of the same entrance they came out, wearing bulky, out-of-season clothing, within a half-hour of the time that they had come out the day before. He then got onto a bus and rode to the _exact same_ tube station that all 4 would-be bombers had gotten into the tube at the previous day, looking around at the police who were tailing him the whole time (b/c he was scared they were going to stop him about his visa), wearing bulky clothing, and then jumped the gates and ran for the train.

I have some questions about why he was allowed to board the bus, but I don't think on those facts that the police made a mistake in shooting him. Although I can't remember another occasion in my life siding with the police in a case like this, I feel that they behaved reasonably and unfortunately shot an innocent person.