2/4:overpair vs possible flush-wasn't sure what to do in this situatio

[invisibleleadsoup]

2/4 ring game on vc poker,nine handed
i've been there about an hour,still have my buyin which is 300
i've been playing fairly tight/solid,lost some of my stack initially when my top pair ran into trip 2's (the guy had called a raise with A2),built it back up through playing solid hands

anyway,i have $300 (the max buyin),most of the table has me covered,everyone involved in this hand does anyway...

im in the BB with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

guy makes it $12 utg +2,two callers,one in mid position,the other on the button,and i call from the blinds...

flop 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

pot is about $50,i bet out $50
i haven't noticed anyone in the hand getting wildly out of hand but people at the table are calling raises with Q4s,etc,and the middle position caller is a fish with $1700
so they could have anything really...
i bet because at this level on this site you'll often get people who'll call you with just the A of diamonds,or even the K or Q
plus i might get action from A8
as far as i'm concerned my overpair is probably good
i get one caller,the guy who raised initially...
turn is a 3,not a diamond
now that he called,i put villain on AK/AQ with a diamond
given that the turn is a blank,i reckon my hand is probably good,so i bet the pot,which is $150,leaving me with about $85
the reason i bet so much is that i don't want to be bluffed/semibluffed off the hand
i think if i bet 50 again then most players in this game would push with AK,one diamond,so i dont want to fold the best hand...

obviously the main hand i'm worried about is a flopped flush ,but i don't want to be playing too scared
i'm not happy with how i played the hand,but is there any way to suss out whether i'm beat here,given that i'm out of position,not very deep stacked,and don't want to be bluffed off the best hand?

comments on all this welcome,i'm not particularly happy with how i played it

[invisibleleadsoup]

bump?
anyone?
i really wasn't sure how to play this,i'd be curious to see what other lines people would have taken...

[amoeba]

I don't understand your reasoning for betting 150.

if you bet 150, are you going to fold for the remaining 86?

It seems like this bet pot commits you.

If you are willing to pot commit yourself anyways, then why are you afraid of them coming over the top if you bet 50 again?

also, you are forgetting JJ with d, QQ with d, KK with d, AA with d. I'm not sure how you are able to forcast that he only has naked Ace just by a flop call.

[rikz]

[ QUOTE ]
you are forgetting JJ with d, QQ with d, KK with d, AA with d.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the most likely hand that cold calls your flop bet. I suppose the flopped nut flush might just call to slow play his hand, too. A low suited connector raising in late positiong that hit his flush would probably come over the top to make you pay to see another diamond. A naked Ad or Kd as part of AK (or AQ) might also call, but with position on you he has a big advantage. I think I would have check/folded this flop with that many players, including the preflop raiser behind you. You were not in the lead preflop, you missed your set, so don't get too attached to a low over pair like TT out of position. Since you took a stab and got called, I really think you're wasting money putting more money in after that. I'd try to check it on the turn and river, folding to 1/5 pot or more bet from the preflop raiser on any steet.

I think it was a mistake to bet from EP on this flop with only TT. Now, if you had reraised preflop, then led out into this board you might have fewer players to act behind you and you might have more folding equity. But, that would open up the initial raiser to push with AA or KK or whatever. So, I like calling for set value preflop - just don't change the plan post-flop just because you have a weak overpair and a mid-level flush draw. No set, no bet.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Obviously you are willing to commit your stack. Therefore, you should bet just enough to price out a flush draw (including implied odds) so that you still get some action from hands that you beat like TP. I would bet $120 I think. But I agree that with this short stack and an overpair I'm probably not laying it down.

[rikz]

TheWorstPlayer-

With three players behind you on the flop, including the preflop raiser, would you check/fold TT here since you missed your set? That's what I'm thinking I'd do.

Why or why not?

Thanks.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Stacks are pretty short so I don't really love the bet out because it brings you well on the way to PCdom. My previous advice was just looking post flop, however. In any case, I certainly won't check/fold here since my hand could be good and my draw could be good. I think it's too much hand to c/f. I probably c/c though. And then maybe c/f the turn. Most people won't fire two shots on this scary of a board without beating you.

[rikz]

I now like c/c the flop and c/f the turn better than c/f the flop for the reasons you describe.

Thanks.

[invisibleleadsoup]

"
I don't understand your reasoning for betting 150.

if you bet 150, are you going to fold for the remaining 86?"

the reason i bet 150 is that an all in for an overbet always looks to me like a weak play
i bet as much as i could without overbetting to represent roughly what i had- a strong(ish) hand i didn't want someone outdrawing-i wanted him to fold what i put him on
obviously i'm not going to fold for the remaining 83,but betting 240 into a 150 pot is a weak looking play

"
If you are willing to pot commit yourself anyways, then why are you afraid of them coming over the top if you bet 50 again?"

the answer to this is obvious,i would have thought-its better to bet than call,because you have fold equity as well as the chance that you could legitimately win with the best hand

[invisibleleadsoup]

"also, you are forgetting JJ with d, QQ with d, KK with d, AA with d. I'm not sure how you are able to forcast that he only has naked Ace just by a flop call."

obviously these hands are possibilites,however i think they would reraise in this situation
i'm not forecasting that he has a naked A,its just my read based on the way games at this level usually are..
more often than not,its AK/Q with a diamond that calls me in this game,hence the read

[invisibleleadsoup]

"In any case, I certainly won't check/fold here since my hand could be good and my draw could be good. I think it's too much hand to c/f. I probably c/c though. And then maybe c/f the turn. Most people won't fire two shots on this scary of a board without beating you."


i see what you are saying,but i think people with A8 with bet again,because in this game i could well have a crappy flush draw,and if i check to someone with a crappy flush draw i think they'll quite possibly bet again and i'll fold the best hand
i bet out to avoid these two situations,i suppose,both of which seem quite likely to me
what would you advise doing differently to avoid folding the best hand,or should i just check fold the turn anyway?


"In any case, I certainly won't check/fold here since my hand could be good and my draw could be good. I think it's too much hand to c/f."

if this was my reasoning on the flop,as it was,why does that change on a none too threatening turn?
(i'm not disputing that it might,just trying to figure out why,given that i think if i check the turn a bet could mean anything)

[amoeba]

this contradicts your previous post.

if you are fairly certain he is on naked ace, then you should hope for him to get it all in.

you can't have folding equity against JJ with d, qq with d, and have naked ace call you with incorrect odds. you can't have both.

[invisibleleadsoup]

yeah i see what you mean,but i'm not entirely surely he has the naked A
and surely i still have fold equity against JJ,say,who may conculde that he is beaten when i bet the turn?

i suppose i think he probably has the A/draw,but if not i have fold equity against whatever he might have

[TheWorstPlayer]

Maybe you are right that people in this game will fire twice with A8. If that is the case, then I think c/c flop, lead turn is your best bet. That way you protect against a better flush draw and you also avoid folding a better hand. If he raises the turn, I am guessing that you can safely fold.