Money Management

I just wanted to know what steps I would have to take in order to make a constant hourly rate. I will switch games or web sites or limits or whatever, but I just want to make a steady 7$ an hour. I don't know how to go about this really, I opened up a partypoker account and play limit hold em at .50/1.00. I have inceased my original deposit from $50 to $100 but the bankroll swings are pretty big, sometimes I will lose or gain 40% of my bankroll in a single session. I think these large swings have impaired my abailty to play well and are also stressful causing me play even worse. I have tilts so bad that I am practically trying to give money to my opponents just to try and win a pot. I am taking a break to re-think my strategy while I am still ahead. I just want some help if anyone has any advice please let me know. I am a strong player, but lately I have been losing money. Can anyone help?please!

Thanks alot,
Al /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dealer_toe]

www.bonuswhores.com (http://www.bonuswhores.com)

live there till you have $1k, the swings won't hurt so much after that.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a strong player

[/ QUOTE ]


This is actually not true.

You probably won't believe me....but you will not fix any of your problems until you at least acknowledge that this is a possibility.

I'm not kidding. It is obvious from your post.

By all means I have things to learn. When I say strong I mean for the most part patient, except when I go on those tilit swings, good enough to make money, not at large stakes or anything just at small limits. I am good enough to hold my own ground. I understand and apply concepts like implied odds and pot odds. But thats not what I needed to hear I just wanted to know if you knew any tips for producing a more consistant hourly wage. I recommend playing with me before telling me what type of player I am.

[[censored]]

Ya dude, your not a strong player but you certainly can become one. I think the bonuswhore link above is a great place to start.

[dealer_toe]

[ QUOTE ]
By all means I have things to learn. When I say strong I mean for the most part patient, except when I go on those tilit swings, good enough to make money, not at large stakes or anything just at small limits. I am good enough to hold my own ground. I understand and apply concepts like implied odds and pot odds. But thats not what I needed to hear I just wanted to know if you knew any tips for producing a more consistant hourly wage. I recommend playing with me before telling me what type of player I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats exactly what he did, he gave you a tip to get better.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to know if you knew any tips for producing a more consistant hourly wage.

[/ QUOTE ]


play better.
(my previous post applies)




[ QUOTE ]
patient, except when I go on those tilt swings

[/ QUOTE ]


this statement is not unlike almost every losing play who says that they play good....except during those times when they are not playing good. something like that anyway.

if you know you tilt, and you cant control it, you have a real problem. just get up and leave the table if you feel a tilt coming on. There is no such thing as "pot committed." If you think you cant win, then fold, even if you only have 1 chip left. You will save yourself a lot chips in the long run if you can avoid tilting, by whatever means necessary.

Poker is a game of swings. There is no way around it. Strong hands get cracked, and it seems like it happens a lot, and there is nothing you can do. If you dont like it, poker aint the game for you. What makes the bad beats seem so constant is two things - most players dont notice when they pull one out of their ass, and most players dont remember all the times their AK holds against AQ, or there AA doesnt get cracked (for example).

Even though you cant avoid swings, playing tight should reduce their frequency. That said, your goal should be more than $7 hour, and you need to know when to play tight and when to play loose...

telling me to play better is not going to help me. It is like telling a fat person to eat less. If you want to give me help telling me to play better is not enough, if you don't have anything worth saying don't post it.

[MicroBob]

you essentially are asking how to make more money at poker and I gave you an honest answer.

If you actually do play well and your only problem (of significance) involved tilt-induced nuttyness then I guess the advice the other poster provided would apply.


I'm not sure if you are multi-tabling or not....but a goal of $7/hr is not realistic at a .5/1 game (don't laugh...a friend of mine was trying to tighten-up by focusing on JUST winning $20/hr....on a single 1/2 table).
2BB/hr is probably the max....and 1.5BB/hr is more realistic (partly because of the rake).


But I stand by my original statement that focusing on playing better might be a good idea. Reading up on all the threads in the micro-limit strategy forum would be the way to go. Then read even more over there.

K thanks for that one, that was helpful and telling me I need to improve is much better than telling me I am a bad player, which I still do not believe is true, but anyway thanks for your tips and time

[MicroBob]

not to belabor the point but i'm not sure what part of my post was actually helpful.

if you weren't already aware that 7BB/hr on one table is unrealistic then you DEFINITELY have much to learn and work on.
just making sure.

[Str8Fish]

There's a great article in the magazine this month about ways to improve your game. I think there's like 7 or so suggestions and also a way to figure out their impact to your game. I highly suggest you read it.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]

Even though you cant avoid swings, playing tight should reduce their frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[benkath1]

Posts: 7

You need thicker skin...and a 300 BB bankroll for whatever limit you play. Even the best players would have a hard time succeeding if they were under rolled.

Go to bonus whores and get it on. You'll be happy you did.

[J. Sawyer]

He's obviously a really g00t player.. I mean he's beating 1 table of .5/1 for 7BB/hour w/ only a 50-100BB BANKROLL!! thats amazing!!!!!!

[J. Sawyer]

yeah bonus whoring is a great way to help build a bankroll in the starting stages of serious play.

All i can suggest is post alot, post all of your hands you have any confusion about, or even if you dont have confusion about them just make sure that you are right. I would post alot in the micro forums at first until you feel that are very rooted in the fundementals (which even though you think you are.. you are not)

also you should multitable, 6 tables or so would be fine, if you want to make 7BB/hour at .5/1

[dogmeat]

MicroBob is 100% reliable. Do I need to add more?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Always be critical of your own play. When doing this, it is important not to be results-oriented. Just because you are winning, it does not mean that you are playing well. Just because you are losing, it does not mean you are playing bad.

I would advise changing your goal to be in terms of bet size, as opposed to dollar amount. This is an important distinction to make, as the amount you win/lose is relative to the limit you play. If you are truly looking to improve, you need to concentrate less on winning and more on simply playing correctly. If you are playing solid poker, winning is just a bonus.

Consider the fact that your poker career isn't divided into equal-sized sessions. Your life is one long session. If you win 5 big bets (BB) in 5 consecutive 2-hour sessions, then lose 25BB in a single 12-hour session, you didn't "break even". It is crucial to understand that your decisions matter more towards the long term than the short term.

I know that you classify yourself as a "strong" player, but there is a lot more to poker than simply playing fewer hands than the average fish. Regardless of how good you think you are, there is still tons more for you to learn. This is true regardless of how often you play, how many hours you have put in, how much money you have won, and how "strong" you are. The truly strong player says not that he is strong, but that he is weak. The hardest part about becoming a serious player is changing your false and deeply-rooted impressions about poker.

[UATrewqaz]

When people tell you you may not be good it's not to attack but to help. Obviously you could be great but alot of people come on these forums, particularly new people, and they look for tons of reasons, EVERY reason to explain things other than the fact they may not be that good.


My advice:

1. Get and read Winning Low Limit Hold Em by Lee Jones, it lays a solid foundation.

2. Get and read Theory of Poker by Sklansky, it expands your mind in regards to poker, allowing you to understand the game theoretically and not just mechanically.

3. Get and read Small Stakes Hold Em, by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth. It builds an awesome consistent winning strategy for low limit games (3/6 and below).

4 (way way way in the future) get and read Hold Em for Advanced Players, by Sklansky. It's the key to winning higher limit games (5/10 and up).



That's the book path, you also need to get Poker Tracker (buy it, pirate it, whatever, just freaking get it). Poker Tracker (I'm asssuming you don't use it) is basically a database/statistical analysis program. With it you can examine your statistics over the long term (the only time statistics matter). If you are applying the concepts of the boks properly your important numbers will converge to a surprisingly small range.

I think you are right on there. After hearing all the things you guys said, I realize already that I'm not as strong as I thought I was. I have tons and tons to learn, thanks for opening my eyes to this. I guess the only problem I have now is getting started, where and how should I go about this. One of the first questions I have is how many BB's is a reasonable amount to make an hour. Obviously, I'm trying to make too much money at the blinds I am playing at. I think this was a big part of the problem. So someone please start me down the road to poker nirvana I have seen the light and need to know where to start.

Al /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CORed]

There really isn't any way to completely eliminate downswings. Playing better and increasing your win rate will help, but in poker your are betting on random events, and, by only putting money in the pot when you have the best of it, trying to insure that your upswings will be bigger than your downswings. You need to have an adequate bankroll (300 BB is the absolute minimum) to withstand the inevitable downswings. If you are looking for a way to sit down at a table for one hour and be certain that you will win a pre-determined amount, I'm sorry, it's simply not possible. The best you can hope for is to average about 2BB/hundred hands over 50,000 to 100,000 hands. But any single session may be much better or much worse than that. Poker is gambling. It is possible, by playing better than your opponents, to have a statistical edge, but it is not possible to guarantee a positive outcome for every hour (or even every month) that you play, no matter how well you play.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the first questions I have is how many BB's is a reasonable amount to make an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to make sure that your short-term goal is not to win bets, but to play correctly. By playing correctly, I mean playing in the best way to make bets over the long run. It isn't important to win lots of pots or win every pot you enter. You even make bets by folding to raises on the turn when you know you are beat. "Money you win can buy just as much stuff as money you don't lose."

I think most players agree that 1BB/hr is a very good rate over the long term. It is important to keep track of *every* session / hour you play, and not just select certain ones where you felt you played well.

If you are playing correctly, your win rate is simply an indicator of this (although this is only true in the long run).

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is gambling. It is possible, by playing better than your opponents, to have a statistical edge, but it is not possible to guarantee a positive outcome for every hour (or even every month) that you play, no matter how well you play.


[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed! You are always at the mercy of the deck.

[MicroBob]

Good post and there is indeed hope as long as you can see that improvement is necessary.


As mentioned previously, 1.5BB/hr at the .5/1 level isachieveable I believe.
This would be about 2 or 2.5BB/100 hands.


As mentioned previously:

get pokertracker
get Winning Low Limit Hold-em by Lee Jones (the 3rd edition which was just released)
and I also recommend Getting Started in Hold-em by Ed Miller
and also Small Stakes Hold-em by Ed Miller.


Read and post in the micro-limit forum here a lot.


Your eyes will be opened further and you will learn lots.


I'm glad some of the arguments other have made in this thread have been so convincing.

Some of my responses may have been curt or short....but, around here, we've seen it all before pretty much.
This isn't EXACTLY you....but just an example of what is seen here everyday:
- newbie mentions that he is a 'really strong player' but just doesn't win very much sometimes
- responses include asking for his stats and/or some hand-histories
- if these are posted then it becomes obvious that he is not playing with a winning tight-aggressive philosophy....or it is somewhere else exposed that he has some gross misconceptions about the game



Remember - almost EVERYONE thinks they are a good player and are playing correctly.
Also.....most people are losing players.
Merely thinking that you are a 'strong player' isn't good enough.
If you post a ton of hand-histories and then a whole bunch of 2+2'ers view as a really strong player then you are probably pretty strong.
The only other way to truly know if you are a strong player is to have a solid win-rate over a large enough sample-size of hands to back it up.
If you need to ask 'how many hands' then you are probably even further from being a strong-player than you think.
Although 30k or more hands would be a decent start (other would say that's not really enough to conclude much though).


Anyway - keep working and striving to improve and eventually you will feel like you are getting there.

ok I'll post some of my hands asap and hopefully you guys can tell me what I'm doing wrong and what I'm doing correctly. Hopefully I'll get you some soon. Also where can I download poker tracker?

[desertking]

[ QUOTE ]
ok I'll post some of my hands asap and hopefully you guys can tell me what I'm doing wrong and what I'm doing correctly. Hopefully I'll get you some soon. Also where can I download poker tracker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to http://www.pokertracker.com for Poker Tracker. Don't attempt to find a pirated version, like the other poster said in jest. The program will open a new window to your game. Pay the man his due.

The books that the other posters listed are correct. Don't be tempted to pick something else up, the ones in this thread are the ones that you need.

One thing that has helped me to achieve my game level is that I never, ever, blame others for my bad sessions. I take full responsibility for my result. I sometimes have been know to say, "bad beats are a concept for the weak". I beleive that. You may want to think about that for a bit and see if you can undersand why it is true.

Good luck dude...

[EStreet20]

You're underrolled, so even if you play perfectly you may bust out. Build up your BR at Bonuswhores. Eliminate your "tilt swings" because if you have those then, as Bob said, you're not a good player. Read the standard beginners' books and study posted hands, learning how the experts play and asking questions if you don't understand.

Good luck,
Matt

[Python49]

Nothing helps you learn better than just getting the experience in. Play more than what you're playing now. Focus on making the best decisions you can and any hands you've had questions on post it here. Im saying this to be honest and not insulting but it just seems as though you're asking alot of questions on how to "get on the road to victory" and "how to win".. and frankly, you will get much better by simply reading here, readin the books, and then practicing so that you can execute and work on the things you've read.

Wow guys thanks for coming through and helping me figure out what I need to be doing. Another question that I have is when you are UTG or in an early position, how do you play low or mid pocket pairs 2's-8's. At first I just limped in and attempted to flop a set and fold if I didn't. Also I'm going to go down in limits, I was playing at .25/.50 cent blinds and I'm switching to pokerstars to swtich to .1/.2 blinds. How long does it normally take to move up levels? Assuming I want at least 600 BB to move up to the next level.

Thanks,
Al /images/graemlins/grin.gif