Newbie help - Tracking pot size, odds

[kong98]

I was wondering how you guys keep track of the size of the pot when you're playing live? Do you count the bets as they go in, or is there a better way or a good trick for this?

Also, for calculating your pot odds, do you actually figure out your exact outs and do the math, or do you memorize the odds (9 outs = 4-1), or is it more instinctual? The reason I ask is that I don't think I can do the math fast enough to keep up with the game! I do more of a "this is a weak draw, and the pot is small... fold" thing and I'm wondering if this is a mistake.

Thanks for the help,
Kent

[DiceyPlay]

Pre-flop I like to watch the action and the players as they see their hole cards and put money in the pot for the first time. So I don't try to count the pot pre-flop. After the round of betting is over, I look to see how many are going to the flop and multiply to get my initial pot size.

It helps a lot if the dealer will call out the number of players, but most dealers don't. And sometimes the ones that do get it wrong, so I usually count it myself. Some players love to hide their cards under their hands or behind the chip racks they have on the table. So there can be obstacles to getting accurate counts.

From there it's pretty easy to keep count. Once you see the flop, you have a pretty good idea of the odds of making your hand so you can relax a little. It can get tricky if there's several people in for a bet and then there's a raise. Much of the time I find myself estimating in these cases because there's other stuff I need to track as well.

I hope that helps.

[jordanx]

When I started counting pot size, held a stack of chips in my hand and dropped one every time a big bet went into the pot. After awhile, counting bets became second nature.

A shortcut to percentage from outs is:

Take the number of outs on the flop. Multiply that by 2 and that is the percentage chance you will make it on the turn. Multiply it by 4 and it is the percentage chance you will make it on the river. Turning the percentage into odds is pretty straight forward and not essential. Again, after awhile you memorize the different combinations and this becomes second nature.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering how you guys keep track of the size of the pot when you're playing live? Do you count the bets as they go in, or is there a better way or a good trick for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop, I count the number of bets right before the dealer reveals the flop. It's usually equal to the number of players seeing the flop or 2x the number of players seeing the flop (sometimes +1). As the hand progresses, I keep adding up the bets as they go in. If there's a raise, I change the amount to "bets over two."

For example, if there's a pre-flop raise and five players see the flop and the big blind folds, I quickly memorize "11." The flop comes. Check, bet (12), raise (14/2), cold-call (16/2), action to me (8:1).

It takes a little bit of practice, but it's the only way that I can think of to quickly and accurately figure out if I have the odds to make my weak draws (like a gutshot on a rainbow board when I hold zero overcards).

[ QUOTE ]
Also, for calculating your pot odds, do you actually figure out your exact outs and do the math, or do you memorize the odds (9 outs = 4-1), or is it more instinctual?

[/ QUOTE ]

I always keep track of how much is in the pot. I figure out my outs on the flop and have memorized the odds for two cards to come. When the turn comes, I quickly re-evaluate my outs and apply the relevant odds.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I ask is that I don't think I can do the math fast enough to keep up with the game! I do more of a "this is a weak draw, and the pot is small... fold" thing and I'm wondering if this is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't keep up with math, practice. Try covering the part of your screen that shows the pot size. This will force you to keep track of the pot on your own.

If you don't keep track of exactly how much money is in the pot and your best-guess calculation of your outs (remember: .5 for each ovecard and 1.5 for a backdoor draw), you will surely make mistakes that will cost you money in the long run.

"This is a weak draw, and the pot is small...fold," is a tremendous mistake. If the pot has seven small bets in it on the flop and you have two overcards and two backdoor draws, you have more than enough odds to call.

I'm not going to fold A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif on a flop of T/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif for one more small bet when there are seven bets in the pot. I'm getting 7:1 and I have six outs. That's an easy call (and likely a raise to clean up my Aces and Kings). The turn card will quickly tell me if I have 12 outs (picked up a flush draw to go with my overs), 7 outs (picked up a gutshot to go with my overs), or 3 outs (just overs).

Btw, if the flop were T/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, this is an easy fold. I have at best 4.5 outs and I'd probably downgrade the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and J/images/graemlins/spade.gif to give me a total of 3 outs.

[callydrias]

Assuming you're talking about limit, just count bets, not dollar amounts. Also, don't forget to account for the rake and jackpot drop.

[randomstumbl]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to fold AK on a flop of T37 for one more small bet when there are seven bets in the pot. I'm getting 7:1 and I have six outs. That's an easy call (and likely a raise to clean up my Aces and Kings).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, is this a slip of the tongue or am I misunderstanding? You have AK, how is raising going to clean up your outs? If you hit you'll have top pair top kicker, are you trying to fold out people that have a pair and an ace kicker or something?

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't keep up with math, practice. Try covering the part of your screen that shows the pot size. This will force you to keep track of the pot on your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

(emphasis mine)

This is fantastic advice. Until recently I had the same exact problem - I couldnt track the size of the pot in a live game. I use torn up post-it notes to cover the pot as practice, and it has worked great. It's not quite second nature like breathing yet, but it's getting close. It takes real practice.

[kong98]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll try to put it into practice tonight! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to fold AK on a flop of T37 for one more small bet when there are seven bets in the pot. I'm getting 7:1 and I have six outs. That's an easy call (and likely a raise to clean up my Aces and Kings).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, is this a slip of the tongue or am I misunderstanding? You have AK, how is raising going to clean up your outs? If you hit you'll have top pair top kicker, are you trying to fold out people that have a pair and an ace kicker or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are trying to get hands like A3 and A7 to fold. You also want to get hands like A9 (with a backdraw flush) to fold, because if the turn is a 9, you are suddenly down to 3 outs and don't know it.

[MisterKing]

Yeah, I just try to track the number of bets. Start in terms of small bets -- the $4 bets in a 4/8 game, and then when the turn comes divide your # of bets in half to convert to big bets. Depending on the stakes, the blinds will often cover the rake if they fold and action continues, in other words in a 3/6 game where 6 see the flop and action goes to the turn, if the BB and SB folded then they paid the rake for everyone ($3+1). Doing this regularly when you are not in the hand will help you get the hang of it, and it will also help you identify spots where opponents are making awful calls/plays (since you'll know someone called two bets with a gutshot or whatever).

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to fold AK on a flop of T37 for one more small bet when there are seven bets in the pot. I'm getting 7:1 and I have six outs. That's an easy call (and likely a raise to clean up my Aces and Kings).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, is this a slip of the tongue or am I misunderstanding? You have AK, how is raising going to clean up your outs? If you hit you'll have top pair top kicker, are you trying to fold out people that have a pair and an ace kicker or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Armchair already answered this question, but if you'd like more information, please see pp. 158-9 in SSHE.

[WackityWhiz]

what, you guys actually bought into that 'pot odds' crap? what a waste of time and effort.<font color="white"> har har har </font>

[Conspir8or]

One other (possibly obvious) note -- You'll do a lot of preflop folding, so use the time you're not in the hand to practice counting bets. I am a seasoned newbie at 1-2 NL, but this (pot tracking) is one of my study points. I did this over the course of a week while in Las Vegas, and I was better at it at the end of the trip. My 2¢.