My 2nd Biggest Losing Hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Student

07-22-2005, 01:38 PM

Posting my worst hand was so educational that I decided to post my second worse hand too. Thank You!

On 7-16 (Saturday) I had a breakthru in understanding. I played 398 hands Sat., Mon., and Tues., doing 214 hands on Tues. alone! Even though I lost a small amount on Tues., overall winnings were $5.65 in my 1/2 cents NL HE games, which averages 71 BBs/100.

Here's my second worse hand, whereby my JJ lost $1.02:

____________________________________
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($1.02)
BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($1.84)
UTG ($1.66)
UTG+1 ($4.01)
MP1 ($1.70)
MP2 ($2.26)
CO ($1)
Button ($5.34)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ checks.

Flop: ($0.08) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $0.1, Villain raises to $0.48, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.38.

Turn: ($1.04) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $0.52, Hero calls $0.52 (All-In).

River: ($2.08) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $2.08

Results in white below: 
Hero has Js Jh (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Villain has 6d 9s (three of a kind, sixes).
Outcome: Villain wins $2.08. 
____________________________________

Student

07-22-2005, 01:59 PM

I screwed up by hitting the submit button inadvertently. Sorry! Here's where I think I went wrong.

I was so overjoyed to have JJ in the hole (the 4th strongest opening hand in NL HE), that I simply refused to even consider what the pair of 6s on the board meant, in terms of the nuts hand!

If I'd have raised preflop, even to 4 cents, probably Villain would have folded with his 96u, and I would have made a little with my nice opening cards instead of losing alot (or maybe the guy who folded after my 10 cents flop bet would have stayed in; who knows?).

OK, so I'd bet 10 cents after the flop! I'd slow-played my JJ preflop. When Villain raised to 48 cents, he was saying he felt he had a superior hand. Both 66 on the flop,and Q on the flop, had me beat big-time, and Villain was kind enough to tell me about it! But did I have ears to hear or eyes to see? Of course not. Not this pig-headed old coot! So I ended up going all-in, losing my second biggest hand...

Dave

PS: By the way, this was the 55th hand of 83 played on Monday, the second day of my breakout period. This was the day of my most success, as I took $37.10 to $40.43. That's $3.33 net, and 201 BBs/100. I'd say I was too enthusiastic for my own good, a thing that happens with me occasionally (I wouldn't change a thing)!

Tilt

07-22-2005, 10:50 PM

You need to absorb your opponent's reaction to each action you take and interpret it, in the context of your reads on the opponent.

Preflop: You did not raise. Why not? So you learned nothing about what your oponent holds from the action. He could haveany two. WHy not a 6 at this point?

Flop: He raises you on a paired board with an overcard. It is not a small raise, but is small enough that it seems to be asking for a call. What would a player like this do this with? Probably a hand that beats you.

The only hand that you beat is a pure bluff. Was he weak/passive before and is only now raising you on a flop? Does he routinely raise flops? These would be clues as to whether this was a bluff.

In any case, you have to decide on the flop whether you are ahead or behind here. You cannot proceed to call half your stack in without deciding this. And then I think its time to either fold to the raise, or go all-in. Calling is a ply I would rarely make.

Turn play: I would only check/call in this situation if I wanted to induce a bluff, i.e. I was very sure I was ahead and that the opponent would continue to spew chips with something like A high.

Student

07-22-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"You need to absorb your opponent's reaction to each action you take and interpret it, in the context of your reads on the opponent."

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very good, and it's probably where I'm starting to get. I'm starting to realize that one can sit at a table and kind of secure an intuition about the different players at the table. Of course, the overriding consideration at the 1/2 cents NL HE tables I'm playing at is loose/passive behavior. Yet, even over the internet, one realizes that different players express this table behavior in an individual independent fashion.

Thank you very much for your inputs!

Dave

PS: I get lazy, sloppy, out-of-focus etc on occasion. An experienced player would know when he was starting to get like that, and would stand up, run to the other end of the house and back, whatever... Then they'd come back to the table with some freshness and enthusiasm. This hand suffered much, because of the above.

Then too, I suppose I've played less than 3,000 hands of poker in my life, so I haven't learned patterns that would protect me, even concerning elementary mistakes. Today I played 152 hands, and at an overall rate of 113 BBs/100. Even at that, I started the day with a big loss, but I played last on the 19th so I was a bit out of practice. Then too, on the 19th I played 214 hands, which is the most I've ever played. I've had days when I've won more money, but all those occasions were before my "Metamorphosis," hence they were flucks.

Tilt

07-23-2005, 09:30 AM

I actually don't advocate playing these stakes for very long. You can't learn very much from them. They are only slightly removed from play money, and you won't learn much from them. Opponents will almost always call, which leads to a very different strategy than in a real game. Get into a 25NL game to improve your play.

Student

07-23-2005, 12:12 PM

When I switched from freeplay to money poker, my goal was to take my $50 bankroll to $70 on 1/2 cents NL HE PokerStars. Then I would switch to 5/10 cents (nickel and dime). At first this seemed possible, as big fluctuations in my bankroll were happening. Then again, thru June I did no reading of books at all, instead focusing on reading 2+2 posts to the Beginner's Forum and poker magazines. My goals were to gather in some depth of understanding of poker at large, since I'd spent the first 67 years of my life without poker.

I came to the conclusion, in time, that I'd overstayed playing freeplay, and that I had picked up some back playing habits from the experienced, entrenched players I was playing against. Though I'd bought 30 poker books, the first 2 I picked up to read were not useful. Stuff went in one ear, and out the other. Then I focused on Ed Miller's "Getting Started in Hold'em (GSiH), really taking my time reading it. In fact, I'm still reading it!

The moment of my enlightenment is documented in my post to 2+2 (search for Metamorphosis), and makes interesting reading. I'd discussed "gaining escape velocity" and "finding the missing piece to the puzzle," and in fact it was all of this, and more, for me.

So my goals concerning reaching $70 bankroll in 1/2 cents is now replaced by $50 (my starting point, eh?). After all, I'd dropped all the way to $34.12 6-27-05, so the recovery to $50 is meaningful to me. I'll go into 5/10 cents games a bit undercapitalized, with 500 BBs (but I could add money, if pressed). I started gathering stats and thinking casually about 5/10 cents poker, perhaps a week ago. I know 5/10 cents poker will be much less loose than 1/2 cents is.

In fact, this transition will be the only large one, all the way up the limits to my own personal brickwall limit. Where this will happen I don't know, but I hope to go to 10/25 cents, 25/50 cents, 50/100 cents, $1/2, $2/4, $3/6 and $5/10 along the way (provided I learn enough by then!).

Presently I still face building my hand strength tables for head-to-head, 2 opponents, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 opponents. Then I intend to do spreadsheets to display cummulative statistics for each of these situations (example: which hands do I open with so overall I enter 20% of hands, 25% etc).

Why am I talking like this? Because I could be at $50 with my bankroll early next week, given the blistering pace I set winning this last week! So I'm in a replanning mode today...

Dave

PS: What is a 25NL game?

AKQJ10

07-23-2005, 12:38 PM

Good dialogue -- as usual, I'm just chiming in on one small point I want to ask about in a bit of detail.

[ QUOTE ]
The only hand that you beat [after the flop raise] is a pure bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure of this? Seems to me erratic micro-stakes players could play some other hands like this, like pocket 8s or 9s -- they might even think that having "two pair" has somehow improved their holding (GSIH (http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Getting_Started_In_Hold%27em) has a bizarre example of this misunderstanding) -- so you can't really say for sure that you're beat. But it's likely enough, and the odds are steep enough, that you're better off folding to fight another day.

In general this is a great example of why you want to raise big pairs. With JJ, QQ, and arguably KK and AA you probably want to have one or at the most two opponents, so raise whatever you think will get it heads up. Of course that's an inexact science, but such is poker.

AKQJ10

07-23-2005, 12:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]

PS: What is a 25NL game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Max. buyin. Depending on the site, the blinds would probably be something like 10c/25c or so. Of course to implement Ed's SSS you want to buy in for much less.

I think you can learn from nano-stakes -- in this case you'd learn to fold JJ when a typical opponent makes a 5x raise -- but I agree that you should only seek to work out the kinks, then move up and do the same.

Student

07-23-2005, 04:27 PM

A good thing about moving up the levels, from the very bottom, and moving up only when one feels comfortable with the last level, is that you have to play many hands. Not just many hands, but many quality hands, before we move on.

I think the folks who move into multitabling are cheating themselves in the long run. Because they've settled for playing pretty good, good enough for the tables they're multitabling at, they'll never get very, very good at poker at any tables. Presently I can aspire to playing in a really big poker tournament, the kind you see on TV. Why not? Why not think big? So I have to master 1/2 cents NL HE ring games first. So what's new? Life is a series of challenges. If I learn to beat 1/2 cents, I suspect it'll take less time to figure out how to beat 5/10 cents, etc etc.

Once I posted that I felt one would learn 35% of everything possible by playing and mastering freeplay, then another 35% playing and mastering 1/2 cents NL HE, and the last 30% would be spread over all the other limits. I stated this not as a person informed and expert about poker, but as one who had seen the same things in other endeavors of mine, over the years. It's just the way life seems to be!

Now I'm getting into poker more deeply, and I haven't even escaped from 1/2 cents NL HE yet, but I might have to improve on my estimates about the quantity of knowledge available to a person attempting to learn poker. It might be true that 30% of all we will learn about poker will be at levels above 1/2 cents, but that also accepts that the brickwall we'll all eventually hit is closer for some than for others. Then too, we might spend a year understanding a single factor, yet someone else figures it out in 5 minutes, simply because they are predisposed by their disposition, experiences, education, etc to jump this hurdle quickly. Interesting!!! Comments?

Dave

Student

07-23-2005, 04:31 PM

I just misplayed a hand, where I should have gone all-in with my pocket KK, after the flop. My opponent had gone in with Q5u, and managed a pair of 5s on the flop. If I'd have gone all in he wouldn't have completed his set of 555, and I wouldn't have lost the hand big!

Dave

Pov

07-23-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just misplayed a hand, where I should have gone all-in with my pocket KK, after the flop. My opponent had gone in with Q5u, and managed a pair of 5s on the flop. If I'd have gone all in he wouldn't have completed his set of 555, and I wouldn't have lost the hand big!

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Without other details it's hard to say what you should have done, but don't fear getting drawn out on to the point of going all-in all the time. If you think you have the best hand then what you really want to do is bet the most you can that will get called incorrectly. Sure, you make money when your opponent folds, but you actually make more money when they make a bad call even though you lose some of the time. It's higher variance, but higher profit as well.

Also, what if your opponent had snuck in with 55 instead of Q5. All-in's have their place, but generally you want to stick to making bets based upon the size of the pot and what odds you want to offer.

Student

07-23-2005, 07:54 PM

Thanks!

I have a feeling if you were to say more, you'd have to say very much more! Unfortunately I haven't arrived at the point where all poker ideas are within my sphere of comprehension. That's what all the experience playing hands is all about. I'm still getting tripped up by trips, and I suspect that error will vanish without a trace with another 2,000 hands played.

The neat thing about PT is it emphasizes that certain hole cards are our personal nymboses (sp?). I get killed with AA and KK, and have no special fondness for AK or AJ. Trips trip me up, and that's avoidable!

This past week I benefitted from my Metamorphosis, taking my backroll up nearly 1/3rd to nearly $45. So my playing lessons have cost $5.08 for nearly 3,000 hands. Soon I'll declare victory over 1/2 cents NL HE, and I'll take on nickel/dime games. Well, that's a jump of 500% in blinds, so I view it as a very serious new challenge! Of course, to say I've MASTERED 1/2 cents is nonsense. I've simply gotten to the point of diminishing returns, and soon there shall be no return from where I intend to go (5/10 cents).

I suspect I should turn from playing poker, and towards reading these books. The tiny parts of SSHE and TOP I've read has me drooling! I know these books will fill in empty spaces I presently don't even no exist.

Thanks very much!

Dave

PS: I continue to display the hand strength tables you'd given me in different formats. I don't spend a whole lot of time doing that, but your tables have transformed into much more useful form. It turns out one needs to have an opening hands table for many different situations, even if one specializes in only 9-hand 1/2 cents NL HE!

PPS: The all-in bets are courtesy of Mr. Ed Miller. If you are generally correct that your hand is truly the best hand, and if you aren't going all-in with $1.00 so as to capture a 6 cents pot, but rather are going after over 50 cents for example, then they have a distinct useful place.

Today I was playing against a fellow who usually opened for 10 cents, whereas he also could have raised to 4 cents. I also noticed that other players had noticed, and they would wait for the river and then bet the pot size, and he'd always fold. Then it came around to be my turn, and sure enough it worked. Of course I had quite a decent hand, but given the circumstances it didn't have to be quite as decent (I guess you'd say it was relatively indecent), given who I was head-to-head with! Advice?

pzhon

07-23-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The neat thing about PT is it emphasizes that certain hole cards are our personal nymboses (sp?). I get killed with AA and KK, and have no special fondness for AK or AJ. Trips trip me up, and that's avoidable!

[/ QUOTE ]
Your sample isn't very large, but you should be winning a lot with AA and KK. Maybe you should review your hands. Are you getting your money in with the best of it, or are you waiting until someone hits a flush or two pair to put the chips in? Are you overbetting so much that weaker hands don't pay you off, but stronger hands stack you?

[ QUOTE ]
This past week I benefitted from my Metamorphosis, taking my backroll up nearly 1/3rd to nearly $45. So my playing lessons have cost $5.08 for nearly 3,000 hands. Soon I'll declare victory over 1/2 cents NL HE, and I'll take on nickel/dime games. Well, that's a jump of 500% in blinds, so I view it as a very serious new challenge!

[/ QUOTE ]
I suggest that you first establish that you are a winning player at $0.01-$0.02. I recommend that you win back the money you lost, and another $25 or so. Get used to the feeling of being a winner. If you hit a downswing at $0.05-$0.10, you can return to $0.01-$0.02 to rebuild your confidence and bankroll.

AKQJ10

07-24-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A good thing about moving up the levels, from the very bottom, and moving up only when one feels comfortable with the last level, is that you have to play many hands. Not just many hands, but many quality hands, before we move on.

I think the folks who move into multitabling are cheating themselves in the long run. Because they've settled for playing pretty good, good enough for the tables they're multitabling at, they'll never get very, very good at poker at any tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree wholeheartedly. To quote from another 2+2er's website (http://www.kingscascade.com/Step_by_Step.html) which helped encourage me to start my journey,

[ QUOTE ]
All the long months of moving up the micro limits is not a waste of time, even though you won’t be making much money. This is your poker education. Most people lose thousands of dollars in the beginning and chalk it up to the price for education. Following my plan, you can get the same education, while only risking a few bucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though he's talking specifically about LHE, the principle applies to low-buy-in NLHE, 50c tournaments, or what have you.

AKQJ10

07-24-2005, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you think you have the best hand then what you really want to do is bet the most you can that will get called incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very very important point! Although I'm of the opinion that there's no need for aspiring NLHE players to learn LHE first, this is one area where us limit converts maybe have a slight advantage. In limit you CAN'T blow your opponent out of the hand so you're often in a position of raising good hands for value, hoping to get called.

That said, I still have trouble remembering this principle. In Pacific $2 and $4 sit-and-gos, where I'm playing most of my NLHE these days, so many people make such bad calls that it arguably is maxing EV to push all-in on the flop at times when you hit your set! But even low-stakes Pacific players will fold if they have nothing, so there's still a great deal of subtlety not necessary to play against bad limit opponents.

Student

07-24-2005, 10:32 PM

It's the decision I made for myself, to move up the limits of course. With no useful exposure to poker these many years, I figured I was as green as they come. Facing 25/50 cents poker might have presented enough challenge to some people to get them to apply themself, but that isn't where I come from. A poker education costing thousands isn't necessarily more valid than one costing $50, at most; it's just more expensive, that's all.

One who has thousands in playing losses will probably figure they know it all now, so there's no use buying and studying books! There seem to be plenty of that kind of player around, by personal experience.

Then too, maybe I'd have to face reality and realize age 67 is too late, for this young man's game! But happily I think I've reached escape velocity, and it will probably be soon that I get my bankroll back up to $50, at which time I get to go up a factor of 5 to nickel/dime NL HE poker! Then the next level is another factor of 2.5, namely to dime/quarter, and after that the jumps are at most 2 to 1, all the way up the levels.

At this juncture I haven't faced my first brickwall, but it sure was beginning to look like my first was also going to be my last! And then came metamorphosis...

Dave

Student

07-24-2005, 11:00 PM

Thanks! I think I'm playing my AK big slick properly, raising preflop with a decent amount (of course, with 1/2 cents NL HE a raise of 3BBs amounts to only 6 cents, but JMHO it's enough to defend my strong hand preflop). Then the flop misses me entirely and someone raises 4 BBs, and I bow out gracefully. Or he raises just 1 BB, and I get to see the turn for just 2 cents more. So now I have about 5BBs spent, the turn is worthless for my hand, and someone else makes some sort of hand and prices me out of the hand with his turn bet.

I haven't loaded these hands into PT yet, simply because I'm using the trial subscription at the moment, and I want to make sure I do the procedures correctly when I pay for the registration, so I was waiting until Monday to attempt that. But my guess is there were at least 5 instances where I had a really strong hand dealt at the hole card level, only to see the flop fail me miserably. Then too, I can recall at least one time when I had JJ, and succeeded in getting a nice payoff. Yet another time I had 69u and the flop was my full house, and when I bet just 2 cents everyone folded. Those things happen, but yesterday they happened again and again. I'm lucky to have made a profit of net $1.26 yesterday. Gross profits and gross losses were quite large on my 240 hands, and that's a real understatement!

The exercise of moving bankroll from $34.12 to $50.00 is enough for me! The move downwards had plenty of content in terms of educational values, but the move since my metamorphosis on 7-16-5 has been quite dependable. Of course, yesterday taught me that variance could deal me a low blow. I started 7-16 with just $34.12, and now I'm up to $44.48, an increase of $10.36, or 518BBs.

From time to time I'd come to the conclusion that 1/2 cents NL HE is too much like freeplay for me, namely a game dominated by fruitcakes and maniacs. My computations of looseness of games showed as large a decrease in my looseness measure between 1/2 cents to 5/10 cents as exists between 5/10 cents and $5/10. That's probably a slight exaggeration, but not too far from the mark. Since I was still struggling to find the missing piece to the puzzle, I thought switching to 5/10 cents might be what my game lacked. Originally I'd planned on staying with 1/2 cents until bankroll came to $70. Then I'd go into 5/10 cents with a bankroll of 700 BBs. Moving from $34.12 to $50 is almost as useful to me as moving all the way up to $54.12 (at which point the bankroll increase would also be exactly $20). Yet I've gone thru a tremendous experience at 1/2 cents, one which I suspect won't be duplicated as long as I stay in the micro-levels with my NL HE poker. Of course, low limit includes $3/6, if I understand Ed Miller in GSiH! So I think I like jumping ship to 5/10 cents when I reach $50!

But I also agree with you that 1/2 cents can be my retreat game, if they beat me too fiercely at 5/10 cents! Although I can add cash to my bankroll, it's kind of an ego thing to make a success of it with just my $50... Then too, I'm trying to defeat ego in myself. So, there you have it!

Thanks!

Dave

Student

07-24-2005, 11:13 PM

Yes, they say bluffs are meaningless in 1/2 cents NL HE poker! I'm running against my 1,000 hands limit with PokerTracker, but there are some quite interesting hands that I recall from yesterday. I'm going to break down and pay the $55 to PT tomorrow, but I want to check with them about the procedures I use. Just as PT is low on clarity at their site (all the clarity seems to come from groupies who have attempted to make up for what PT lacks), I've noticed quite a few complaints of people who have paid the registration fee, and then couldn't get started with PT. So I want to dialogue with them Monday, when I expect they'll be at the rudder!

Poker is a game with all sorts of interesting problems!

Dave

PS: Learning very much about limit HE is necessary to learning about NL. I was annotating a section in GSiH, which was specifically stated to pertain to limit HE, and 3 of 4 points he'd made were also important to NL, in fact even more important there, JMHO. After all, all that NL does is remove bet structuring. That said, I realize mine is a gross generalization and simplification, and one defending significance of limit HE, compared with the upstart NL HE, should have no difficulty at all defending their turf. Me? I don't care... I'm doing what I want to do, and these other guys are doing what they enjoy.

pzhon

07-25-2005, 01:25 AM

I strongly recommend that you learn to beat NL $0.01-$0.02 before moving up. Having a few winning days doesn't mean you are beating a game.

If you can't beat the "fruitcakes and maniacs" consistently, you have a lot to learn at the penny-ante level. Knowing how to extract money from bad players is a crucial part of success in every level I play through NL $400.

Student

07-25-2005, 10:20 AM

I intend to do just what you recommend!

When I go to 5/10 cents NL HE, what special problems do you anticipate will be the most important ones I'll have to overcome? I'm thinking I'll have to relearn an entire new list of players, and PokerStars has more 5/10 cents tables than they do 1/2 cents, if that's possible! Play will be tighter, though I suppose some of these guys, who started at 50/100 cents, might find this hard to believe! The numbers being bet will be bigger, but not 5 times bigger (5/10 cents being a more civilized game than 1/2 cents).

There's something to be said for staying at 1/2 cents with a new intention, that being to find the hardest games to play in at that level, and attempt to make money at those tables. So I'd get back up to $50 bankroll by hook or crook, and then find hard games to see if I can figure out how to build more capital at those tables.

Another useful aspect of slowing down at this useful juncture would be to spend more time reading books, which I'm afraid I'm still behind on! The occasion of moving up a single level can be an excuse to do all sorts of catchup activity. I want to build a library of opening hands tables. This library would be based on percentage of all hands I'd go into, for example 15%, 20%, 25%, even up to 75% (useful for increasing the bet above 1 BB, in the instance of being on the big blind). There is other mathematical research I can envision, and then too there is the mastery of PokerTracker and exploration of other poker software. Meanwhile, while all this outside work is being done, each day I'd continue to play at my present table level, searching out the hardest games rather than the easiest. It's truly an example of focusing on the important things, rather than the insignificant thing, bankroll size. If one just keeps learning how to play better, than eventually bankroll size will attend...

Dave

derick

07-27-2005, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

... I want to build a library of opening hands tables. ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Add this to your library.

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 1493820 87.24 212248 12.40 6236 0.36 0.874
2s 7c 212248 12.40 1493820 87.24 6236 0.36 0.126

Summary:

Write this on your monitor in perm marker!

Deuce seven beats AA 12% of the time. Raise Preflop until they don't call you.

pzhon

07-27-2005, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Deuce seven beats AA 12% of the time. Raise Preflop until they don't call you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Non sequitur. AA is worth much more than the blinds. I average about 15 big blinds with AA, 10 times the amount of the blind money, and I would win a lot less if I followed your advice.

72o outflops AA about 3.6% of the time.

AKQJ10

07-27-2005, 05:15 PM

I agree with pzhon - if your goal is to take down the blinds when you get a good hand, you're playing a -EV game given the amount you pay in blinds and time charge or rake when you DON'T get a good hand.

It goes back to the Fundamental Theorem - you want to induce your opponents to play "wrong". Folding to an open AA is never wrong unless you have the case aces.

derick

07-28-2005, 07:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Deuce seven beats AA 12% of the time. Raise Preflop until they don't call you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Non sequitur. AA is worth much more than the blinds. I average about 15 big blinds with AA, 10 times the amount of the blind money, and I would win a lot less if I followed your advice.

72o outflops AA about 3.6% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't make myself clear, What I meant was Raise Preflop unless your raises are getting too much respect, then you can consider something like limping in early position with AA and then check raising them if they raise you.

The main problem with this hand is that the original poster did not raise his big pocket pair preflop.

The only time at this level you might consider not raising preflop is if you find your last few preflop raises are getting too much respect and not getting called.

In this case with JJ in the small blind I would have bet about 5 times the big blind.

With AA I might consider betting 3-4 big blinds but I would almost never limp in the small blind.

In early position if thinking aggressive players are giving my preflop raises too much respect and folding to my raises I might consider checking AA and then checkraising their late position preflop raises. This will probably never happen at levels below .05/.10

Even at the .25/.50 level I'm sitting in tables where 30-40% of the players see the flop.

Your opponents call too much.
Don't give 27o , 69o a free flop.

Bet those pairs of aces kings queens and jacks.

AKQJ10

07-29-2005, 09:24 AM

FMP:

[ QUOTE ]

Folding to an open AA is never wrong unless you have the case aces or are getting awfully good pot odds (say something like 8:1 or more to outflop the aces with another pair).

[/ QUOTE ]

sekrah

07-29-2005, 10:20 AM

JJ is overrated hand in these games.. Don't fall in love with it.

Key to microlimit holdem.. RAISE PREFLOP EVERYTIME YOU ARE READY TO PLAY A POT!

If it hasn't been raised yet, and you have a hand you want to play.. RAISE IT! Every every every every every every single time!! I cannot say this enough.. This is crucial.

With the limpers ahead of you, You MUST make this atleast $0.12 to go.

Student

07-29-2005, 10:40 AM

As usual, you've hit the nail right on the head, and Thank You!

[ QUOTE ]
"Key to microlimit holdem.. RAISE PREFLOP EVERYTIME YOU ARE READY TO PLAY A POT!

If it hasn't been raised yet, and you have a hand you want to play.. RAISE IT! Every every every every every every single time!! I cannot say this enough.. This is crucial."

[/ QUOTE ]
And you went on to say, because there are limpers ahead of me in the hand, the preflop raise should be significant. Good advice! This silly hand I've posted just keeps producing, and I'm gratified to have learned so much from so many 2+2 experts!

Dave

sekrah

07-29-2005, 12:49 PM

They key to the raise EVERYTIME preflop, also involves firing out at the pot no matter what hits the board.

I.e. You're in the small blind with J-J, .01/.02 game.

MP1 limps, CO limps.

Add up your limpers, 2 total. Me personally, my standard raise, if action is to me with nobody limping in front of me, would be 4 BB or .08. I add 1 BB for every limper in front of me, up to a max of 7 BB total (0.14). Two limpers here, Raise to .12 (.08 + .04).

Now BB with 6-9 folds. Let's say MP1 and CO both call the raise (.10 more to them).

Flop comes Q-6-6. Pot size is .38. I like 1/3 to 1/2 pot size bet here.. Bet .15. MP1 folds. CO folds. You win the pot.

These guys are going to miss a flop like that most of the time. You have to make a solid continuation bet to push them out.

Now, if you limp in with J-J instead of raising, they have no reason to believe you are strong. You WANT them to think you are strong before the flop and the flop just made you stronger.

What's great is, you can do with ANY TWO CARDS. I'll sit there and wait a few orbits, waiting for a big hand.. All of a sudden I'll pick up something like 6-7 suited on the button with four limpers in front of me.. This is where you make the play. Build a little pot, Raise to .14. You'll get 1 or 2 limpers to come along for the ride, and they'll check to you, fire at the pot. It doesn't matter what your hole cards are.. You are looking to pick up a .30-.40 pot.

This is how you accumulate small pots at this levels and slowly accumulate wealth.

Also, if you are the preflop aggressor, you gotta be willing to fire raises back at people if they bet the flop in front of you. There's no bigger signal of strength to weak-tight players than a raise.

Student

07-29-2005, 02:11 PM

VERY much appreciated!

My weakness concerns play, since I've simply read nothing about it (at least I haven't pursued reading about it, consciously)! I've bought 30 poker books, and 12 are 2+2s, and you'd think I'd learn how to PLAY poker by reading. Of course, I practice playing, and I'm learning things that work and things that don't work, from experience.

I just had a hair-raising 100 hands playing 1/2 cents NL HE on PokerStars. My luck was terrible. Mostly my hole cards were lousy, but when they were good the board didn't help me. Example: I get AA, and the guy with J6u flops the 6. He stays with me and the turn is a J. He has 2 pairs and I lose. I'm busy complimenting myself for my good play!

Finally, I get QdTd. The flop is something like 6d8dT, so I have high pair, and a 4-flush draw. I bet 20 cents, and a few stayed with me. The turn is something else, and the pot goes to maybe $2.00 (but my memory is fuzzy - I sure do remember that all three were still in against me). The turn is a diamond to complete my flush, and I go all-in. Two went all-in with me, and I had over $4 in the pot. The result was the biggest pot I've ever won, $10.75! That's 537.5 BBs we're talking about. I went from being down nearly $2.00 for the 100 hands to winning net $4.75. This is important to me, because I've been fighting to get back to $50 bankroll, and now I have $53.58.

The bad cards toughed me. I'd started with $1.00 and was losing, so I added $2.00 to the table. So my basis was then $3.00. When I continued to loss, being down $3.10 at one time, I finally changed tables. By then I'd added another $3.00. My intention was to have enough money that if a barnburner came in, and competition was great, that I'd double up into getting back in the game. Later I discovered that a fellow I had lots of info for was multitabling, but I was unaware of it then. I'm sure glad I switched!

I'll read and reread your playing advice. My first read didn't do it for me. I'll have to concentrate on it. But I shall; trust me! I know that you've stood on your head to help me, and I THANK YOU!

OK, this afternoon I get to go camping with my oldest son and his two oldest sons. This is my first camping trip in 30 years! So I'm going to hang up poker (except I'll get back to 2+2 if I get caught up with things!), and won't be back playing until Monday.

Thanks again!

Dave