I'm embarassed about this one...

[gol4pro]

I keep reviewing this hand, but can't figure out where everything went wrong.

5/10 6-max at pacific. Hero has K /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gifin the BB. UTG is a LAG, and will continuation bet 99% of the time. CO is loose passive.

Preflop-- UTG raises, CO calls, hero calls

Flop Q /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
-- Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls
-- I'm assuming I have at least 1 live card, a gutshot, and a BD flush. Definitely worth 9:1

Turn T /images/graemlins/spade.gif (pot 5BB)
-- Hero checks, UTG bets, CO folds, Hero raises, UTG 3 bets, Hero caps, UTG calls

River 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif(pot 13BB)
-- Hero bets, UTG raises, hero calls

UTG had Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif
-- What lesson should be learned from this hand? Should I have just called him down after the turn 3-bet?

[shant]

Don't be results oriented. You described him as a LAG. He could have a lot of hands that aren't the few that are beating you. You played it fine.

[crunchy1]

Continuation betting is a lot different than 3-betting your turn checkraise. I think I'd need a more maniacal read to be capping the turn and leading the river.

[callmedonnie]

Your assumption on the flop is where everything went wrong. You were being offered 9 to 1, and you counted four outs for the gutshot, one for bd flush, and three for you high card making it a total of 8. You definitely don't have eight full, nor should you assume such. Even if you bring it down to 6.5 or such, you're calling anyway.

Sometimes you just get unlucky and have a straight against lags when they have boats. Lags get paid off, that's one of the perks for them. This stuff happens.

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep reviewing this hand, but can't figure out where everything went wrong.

5/10 6-max at pacific. Hero has K /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gifin the BB. UTG is a LAG, and will continuation bet 99% of the time. CO is loose passive.

Preflop-- UTG raises, CO calls, hero calls

Flop Q /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
-- Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls
-- I'm assuming I have at least 1 live card, a gutshot, and a BD flush. Definitely worth 9:1

Turn T /images/graemlins/spade.gif (pot 5BB)
-- Hero checks, UTG bets, CO folds, Hero raises, UTG 3 bets, Hero caps, UTG calls

River 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif(pot 13BB)
-- Hero bets, UTG raises, hero calls

UTG had Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif
-- What lesson should be learned from this hand? Should I have just called him down after the turn 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think its fine as long as you consider that opponent to be really laggy. i just noticed this is a 6-max hand, so be warned i suck at 6-max/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. you should probably post 6-max hands in the short-handed forum they will give you better advice.

[SeaEagle]

There's not a lot you can do about this hand. You might be able to save a bet or two by slowing down on the end. Against a tightish player, I'm respecting the turn re-raise and calling down, in large part because I don't think they'd have open raised UTG w/ a 9 in their hand. If villian is really lose and will open raise w/, say, A9s or T9s then I think you're OK playing it like you did.

[Redd]

I don't understand why everyone is talking about slowing down here; we have a straight versus a LAG in a 6-max game. Depending on just how LAGgy he is, A9/K9 are as/more likely than QQ/99 here. I'd even consider 3-betting the river.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd even consider 3-betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think OP described villian as laggy, not stupid. Do you come across many players who see the turn capped and still raise the river with nothing more than trips?

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you come across many players who see the turn capped and still raise the river with nothing more than trips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Or an overpair. Or top pair. That's 6max poker.

Back to the original hand--given your description of UTG, I strongly consider 3-betting preflop with KJs. Even a normal TAG player could be raising from UTG in a 6max game with a hand like KTs or QJs, etc, not to mention almost any pocket pair. Given that he's a LAG, I'm far from assuming that my hand is not the best one at that time.

Since you only called the preflop raise and since UTG is a known LAG, I like the way you played every other street. Just rotten luck that he had a real hand this time. I also just call the river raise.

[meep_42]

I strongly disagree with a 3-bet preflop. Your edge, if you have one, is miniscule. You're out of position. You're closing the action, you're not shortening the field.

For what it's worth, I probably play this exactly the same, and I think a lot of people are getting results oriented when they're offering advice here. (I may sometimes call the turn 3-bet and call the river, but that would be heavily read oriented.)

-d

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Or an overpair. Or top pair. That's 6max poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont care how LAGGY someone is nobody shy of a maniac in 6 max is capping the turn without the near-nuts, and the raise on the river guarantees that he has the nuts or near nuts. IMHO the OP is looking at a split pot at best.

[meep_42]

UTG 3-bet, not capped. If i'd have bet-3bet and gotten capped, i'd definitely not be betting/raising the river.

-d

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree with a 3-bet preflop. Your edge, if you have one, is miniscule.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. We have a LAG raising from UTG on a 6max table, which could mean almost anything. We then have a loose/passive coldcalling from the CO, which again could mean almost anything. I think that Hero holds a significant equity advantage over both opponents a good amount of the time in this scenario. True, Hero is OOP postflop, but that will be true irregardless of whether he calls or 3-bets, and will not change the hole cards that his opponents hold. The fact that one of them of is passive only makes it sweeter, as this makes it painfully easy to fold postflop if the CO raises him, especially after he 3-bets preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont care how LAGGY someone is nobody shy of a maniac in 6 max is capping the turn without the near-nuts, and the raise on the river guarantees that he has the nuts or near nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must stumble onto a lot of maniacs, then. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, I've missed a ton of bets in the past because I assumed, as you're doing, that my opponent must have the near-nuts to be playing it that aggressively on the latter streets. On a typical 6max table, a lot of players are capping the turn and raising the river with trips. A decent amount are doing the same with AA/KK. And a few are doing it with AQ/KQ. I've got hand histories to prove it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[blackize]

Maybe Im not running into my share of maniacs at 6 max. Also my table selection for 6 max gets me smaller pots so I might be avoiding maniacs. I've probably come across 1 maybe 2 players that are anywhere near this aggressive in my 20k hands at 1/2 6 max and 2k hands at 3/6 6 max.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd even consider 3-betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think OP described villian as laggy, not stupid. Do you come across many players who see the turn capped and still raise the river with nothing more than trips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, quite a lot actually. 6 max is a totally different game .

[ZenMusician]

With a LAG, I am almost expecting Q9, T9, etc.

Anyone lead out on the Turn here instead of a C/R? If
you are giving any credit to the 3 bet on the turn, why
not bet out and if raised use a check-call line to finish
up? I feel beat on flops like JJT QQ9 QQT when this
much strength (albeit however strong you read him for)
is shown.

Thoughts?

-ZEN