19-24% vpip - an added edge?

After seeing Ed's biggest leak post bumped this morning and after reviewing only my last 5k hands or so I am noticing my vpip is around this 23% area.. okay... I haven't been running particularly well but I have been playing in particularly soft games -- so I've loosened up with the knowledge that I am considerably outplaying my opponent.

Namely more multi way hands from MP like QT JT etc. and even limping ATo UTG

I am quite sure playing these extra hands is +ev on the later rounds when playing against opponents you are significantly outplaying.

Opinions?

[DMBFan23]

you may be on to something. Nate hints at something similar in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=1767198&fpar t=&PHPSESSID=) .

I think 24% is too loose even with the lower online rake. Either way, as you said, it takes some postflop skill to make it work. I'm not sure that adding offsuit hands in EP is the way to go either

[J. Sawyer]

I think 19.5 is definately optimal.

[sy_or_bust]

this thinking:

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so I've loosened up with the knowledge that I am considerably outplaying my opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]
is very dangerous.

In any case it sounds like you are beginning to play worse, like limping ATo UTG. There are better spots to loosen up, and certainly not to 24% unless you are a very strong mid-high limit player.

[Paxosmotic]

My only opinion is that a lot of us are too quick to assume we're outplaying our opponent. John Feeney discusses this in his book. People have a little bit of success and instantly think they're outplaying everyone they sit down with, and their VPIP goes up by 4 points because they feel they make the right decision in every situation. Why don't you keep your 19 VPIP and pick 3 suited hands to add to your starting requirements, then reevaluate in 10k hands? I just don't understand why people summarily decide to add all sorts of hands all at once.

Also, if you're limping ATo UTG and consider that loosening up, the only person getting played is you. Loosening up is playing a hand like 75s or 96s, not weak offsuit ace-any combinations.

please eleborate.. and let me too..


I loosen up to the 22%ish range after several orbits with decent reads on my opponents post flop play..

[sy_or_bust]

I play 22%, and wouldn't go higher. I defend blinds a little more and open-raise liberally. Blah.

Anyway. Before you post again, you should read Nate's thread (all of it) that DMB posted. It's exactly what you want to hear, and perhaps you'll pick up some ideas on how you might be mis-applying your (generally correct) thought process that loosening up can be +EV.

ya, the ATo thing is something I've just recently started trying... but I don't know how its working out.. I think your right on that for sure.

I also like your idea about the suited hands because those are hands where knowing to play those hands properly is key and can lead to winning big pots.

Thanks!

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I am quite sure playing these extra hands is +ev on the later rounds when playing against opponents you are significantly outplaying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%

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Namely more multi way hands from MP like QT JT etc. and even limping ATo UTG


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FWIW, I am rarely loosen up UTG and UTG+1 but loosen up a lot near the button. So I basically always muck ATo UTG although if a game is particularly tight and my image is good I might raise.

I've never had my VPIP < 21%.

Sounds good.. Loosening up on the button in terms of off suit hands.. how far to you go?

97o? and for suited hands say Qxs? Jxs if your image is good and the game is good?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds good.. Loosening up on the button in terms of off suit hands.. how far to you go?

97o? and for suited hands say Qxs? Jxs if your image is good and the game is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

97o maybe. Depends how bad the limpers are, who's behind me, how tight they are, aggressiveness of the blinds, etc. But if the conditions are right, yeah, I'd limp. Suited Qs are right on the border too, but yeah, I would. Suited Js probably not, but J9s of course. I've started overlimping down to A7o or so because I was told a couple months ago about another player who did and I've had mixed results.

Sometimes, especially live, if the game is really weak and passive, I'll limp just about every button. CDC does this and I used to think he was nuts. I still think he's nuts but only partially because of this behavior.

[kamelion44]

Hey sfer, just curious, how many tables do you play at once? Are you able to mix in your more marginal hands (i.e. A7o) when you're playing your maximum number of tables, whatever that limit is?

[SmileyEH]

I think the emphasis on adding suited hands from EP or broadways whatever is pretty pointless. They make up such a small percentage of your hands you won't be faced with many more interesting decisions and is almost certainly neutral EV. However, if you open up your stealing requirements a lot and defend with a wider range your vpip will jump. These hands are *better* to add in my mind because they put you in more difficult situations that even if only marginally profitable will improve your handreading and postflop skills. The greatest increase in my postflop game (from poor to mediocre /images/graemlins/smile.gif) coincided with increasing my att. to steal from around 25-30% to 40-45%. At 2/4 full I'm about 19/12.5 fwiw.

-SmileyEH

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Seconded, loosening up in the form of increasing PFR (and BB defence) on both sides of the button is IMO better than loosening it up by limping marginal hands, especially from EP. Don't see the point of limping much preflop, raising has so much more value since it gives you an edge for the rest of the hand.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey sfer, just curious, how many tables do you play at once? Are you able to mix in your more marginal hands (i.e. A7o) when you're playing your maximum number of tables, whatever that limit is?

[/ QUOTE ]

4 to 6 usually. I think so. Adding a couple more hands each session doesn't change a whole lot.

[Harv72b]

I suspect that, in a 10-handed LHE setting, 23% VPIP is pretty near the max that anyone can play longterm without starting to lose their edge. I play pretty loose compared to most, and I still only end up with a VPIP around 21-22% in full ring.

Like others have said, I think that if you want to increase your VPIP a hair the place to do it with is suited connectors from MP (maybe even EP depending on table conditions) and suited 1 & 2-gappers from LP. Limping ATo from UTG is simply not good poker, no matter how bad your opponents are.

Personally, I think that if you're consistently outplaying your opponents, you should be striving to decrease the number of opponents you face vs. expanding the number of hands you play in a full ring setting. If you're a good postflop player, 6max is your friend and even shorter tables are friends with benefits.