Implied odds hands in level 1 on Party

[durron597]

Everyone knows to limp PPs early obviously. But after discussion with another 2+2er over IM we had a disagreement over other high implied odds hands in position.

How many limpers to you would you need to limp in the following situation: you have A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif on the button, or T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif. You don't expect the these particular blinds to raise without AJ+/99+. PLEASE ONLY VOTE IN THIS POLL WITH RESPECT TO GAMES $33 and below! Also, please pick the minimum number of limpers before you would limp behind.

Edit: please note this question is mostly geared to the expected return on your 15 chips based on Party's structure. Anyone who is folding these hands on PokerStars or PokerRoom to 2 limpers is definitely losing value. The question is, with an 800 chip stack on Party is it worth it?

[durron597]

Well it looks like 1 person is openlimping these hands on the button. Do you find they pay off?

[SCfuji]

hey durron, id really like to have a family pot. im only at the 22s just started again with the 10s and moved up after a couple weeks. its just that im usually going to fold and if i hit its usually a draw. if its going to be a draw with a family pot im going to want the nutdraw so no T9s for me. but after 4+ limpers ill take that AXs to see a flop.

[Superfluous Man]

I said two limpers for both; I think at that point, you're very likely to find at least 1 player in the $33s and below (of the 4 in the pot with you, assuming both blinds take the flop) who will donate his stack to you when you hit a big flop. Or, they'll donate some chips/minimize your losses when you outplay them postflop. Or, you'll whiff on the flop and only lose T15.

Maybe I just have rose-colored glasses here, but doubling up early is such a huge advantage in Party SNGs that I don't mind a little cheap multiway action (even for like 2% of my stack) with hands that do well multiway.

I just realized I didn't quantify anything. I love rambling.

[Freudian]

I'd like two limpers for speculative hands in level 1. But I'm fine with a single guy providing he fits a chipspewing profile.

[tigerite]

I went for three limpers with T9s and never for A4s, because it's much easier to play a flop with T9s and also easier to see when you've hit, than with A4s in my opinion, also you get much better draws with it. But hey that's just me.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I went for three limpers with T9s and never for A4s, because it's much easier to play a flop with T9s and also easier to see when you've hit, than with A4s in my opinion, also you get much better draws with it. But hey that's just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I limp with A4s check/fold unless I have the nut flush draw at minimum. Semibluffing with 12 outs (edit: or sometimes more if I have a wheel draw) is a good way to accumulate some chips. Flopping TPcrapK is not worth investing more than my starting 15 in a family pot.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
I went for three limpers with T9s and never for A4s, because it's much easier to play a flop with T9s and also easier to see when you've hit, than with A4s in my opinion, also you get much better draws with it. But hey that's just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have gone from absurdly tight in level 1-2 to opening up my game quite a bit and trusting my postflop abilities. So there is constant tweaking going on as to what I play and how I play it.

I definately think there are chips to be made from playing more hands early on. But of course you can go to far and hurt your stack often.

[Degen]

These are draw heavy hands. They only bleed chips.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
These are draw heavy hands. They only bleed chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think your opponents will give you bad odds to hit your draws, of course you should be more reluctant to play them. On the other hand, it is pretty common that streets are checked through in the 11s-22s.

[adanthar]

If 7 people limp in before you and you fold either of those hands on the button, I am sorry to tell you you suck at poker.

[starvs]

I fold both of those hands without 4 or so limpers infront of me.

[The Don]

Because I am pretty sure that nobody has an overpair I raise to t75 with the 109s from the button with 2 or 3 limpers hoping to isolate 1 or 2 on the flop... This is an excellent opportunity to stack someone. I would limp with the A4 with 3+ other limpers though.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I am pretty sure that nobody has an overpair I raise to t75 with the 109s from the button with 2 or 3 limpers hoping to isolate 1 or 2 on the flop... This is an excellent opportunity to stack someone. I would limp with the A4 with 3+ other limpers though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to raise with T9s to isolate! You want someone else to flop top pair or even two pair when you have a straight...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

If you think your opponents will give you bad odds to hit your draws, of course you should be more reluctant to play them. On the other hand, it is pretty common that streets are checked through in the 11s-22s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention semibluff equity.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
If 7 people limp in before you and you fold either of those hands on the button, I am sorry to tell you you suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

indeed. regarding a 3 limper situation, I'll take 109s over A4s anyday...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

indeed. regarding a 3 limper situation, I'll take 109s over A4s anyday...

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. I like them both. T9 has the straight possibilites but if a villian has a hand like KQ on Qxx board with two hearts you get the extra 3 pair outs more often.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

indeed. regarding a 3 limper situation, I'll take 109s over A4s anyday...

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. I like them both. T9 has the straight possibilites but if a villian has a hand like KQ on Qxx board with two hearts you get the extra 3 pair outs more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're also doing the stacking on flush-over-flush instead of the other way around.

i think i'd still prefer T9s though.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

i think i'd still prefer T9s though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that's true because T9 can also easily have gutshot outs to make up for the top pair outs it doesn't have.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
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i think i'd still prefer T9s though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that's true because T9 can also easily have gutshot outs to make up for the top pair outs it doesn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to admit that I have a slight to moderate Axs phobia /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

btw, w/ a hand like 109s, I tread VERY carefully w/ a flush draw. I don't really distinguish the hand from 109o in these situations...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really distinguish the hand from 109o in these situations...

[/ QUOTE ]

That is very silly. Just don't play the 4th nuts like it was the nuts and you'll be fine...

[durron597]

Anyone have a mathematical justification for their answer? Also, how do your answers change in level 2?

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
btw, w/ a hand like 109s, I tread VERY carefully w/ a flush draw. I don't really distinguish the hand from 109o in these situations...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding, right?

[durron597]

Looks like the consensus is for the most part 2-3 limpers. I would expect that the people who said 2 wouldn't think it was terrible if you folded 2 and called 3. I personally go for two with both hands.

I have to agree with adanthar, anyone who folds either of these hands with 7 limpers is really missing value.