End of Day A8s and KK hands PP 2/4 6max

[fimbulwinter]

Hand 1:

Huge lag (280) on my (1300) left, I limp UTG with KK, lag makes it 25, one call, solid (29/14), tricky SB (1300) pushes, folded to me. SB has never seen me limp/reraise and i'm 25/10 at the table right now over 300 or so hands, all of which he's seen.

Hand 2:

I (cover) get A8s on BB, 18/3 ABC weakie nut peddler CO (600) limps, SB (400) the wondermonkey completes, I check.

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif (10)

SB bets 8, i raise to 40, CO calls (would not play a set this way, has a very solid draw to be calling this), SB folds

8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (100)

how much?

fim

PS- (watch out for brag) to all those who are running bad, i was one of you (flat for so long) until today. 12 hours, 2300 hands and $2800 profit. just wait, the cards will come; we all can't be reminded enough of this.

[jtr]

Hand 1, wow. I think the "1300" figure is fazing me as I don't usually play at this level. What do we put the solid player on? Thinking about it, they're presumably going to make this move with AA or KK certainly, may make it with QQ or AKs, and just might try it with JJ or AKo. Does that sound plausible? KK is of course unlikely, and so I'm basically tossing up between AA and QQ for their holding. I suspect I would talk myself into a fold here, but equally I suspect that you didn't and you were probably right not to.

Hand 2, what about betting 40 or 50 in an attempt to price him into his flush draw? Or would that be too obvious given your other betting patterns?

[taran]

Hand 1: What do you play UTG with the huge LAG behind? I will fold it (I am a puppy weak tight, against push from a solid-tricky-big-stack) it is either split or you will be drawing to 2 outs. IMO
It just if he has AA and will(and he should) re-raise there it would be obvious that he has AA. I do not think he would want to get involved with 3 people behind him by merely calling or putting small re-raise. So he just pushed hoping that you/LAG have PP. IMO

Hand 2: 2/3 or full pot. Hopefully he has something like AcJc Ac-xc.

[Rockatansky]

Hand 1: Seems like SB has a holding that he thinks is better than yours or lag's, but doesn't want to play post-flop oop. If this guy is good, why would he play A-A like this? A-K, Q-Q or J-J seems reasonable. I wouldn't read his push as anything other than an attempt to get lag all-in pre-flop. The only way I see him holding A-A here is if he's crapping his pants at the thought of playing oop post-flop against you.

[punter11235]

First hand :

I would reraise-allin here, my (very short) experience at 6max tables tells me that pushes in this position are very often made without AA.

Second hand :
I would bet the pot if he has solid draw hes probably not folding here. Also pot-bet strongly indicates AK and its good that Villain will think so.

Nice profit /images/graemlins/smile.gif I started -300 today but my first 1k pot fixed it all /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Best wishes

[Falker11]

Hand 1:
I think what you do depends on the LAG. Was the lag calling huge overbets preflop...was he calling normal reraises preflop? If he was calling normal reraises preflop but not overbets, then I think you need to make this call. SB would not want to force villian out with AA-QQ if he could keep him and his marginal hand in with a normal reraise. I think you will be shown AK here a lot in this situation.

If on the other hand the LAG was calling big overbets preflop with marginal hands, I think you have to find a fold here. In this case it is more likely for villain to be holding a big hand as he knows he will be called a large portion of the time.

Havent read hand two yet, I'll read it know and post if i have comments

Falker

[kyro]

Hand 1: Insta. Slowrolling is for nubs. Wait. You are asking how long you should take before calling right? NO? You're asking IF you should call?

I put villain on AK here a vast majority of the time. You said you HAVEN'T LRR yet. I can't see a push here with AA.

Hand 2: How much does he get out of line postflop? You seem to have a read that he would play a draw by calling the flop, but no other information. It would really depend on how much he's willing to pay for it. If he's a chaser, bet 100-125. If he's smarter than that, 75 should be enough.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Hand 1: Hope Party doesn't disconnect you before you can call his all-in.

Hand 2: $70

[Falker11]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: 2/3 or full pot. Hopefully he has something like AcJc Ac-xc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[djoyce003]

Hand 1 - you do say he's tricky which makes me at least think that he could play AA this way, because nobody would suspect it's AA. It looks an awful lot like 10-10 - QQ and the guy really doesn't want to see a flop and he's hoping that the lag will call with some crappy ace or something i'm guessing. I'd go ahead and call this but not be terribly surprised if he turns over AA...i don't think he turns over AA more than 30% of the time though and you are so far ahead of anything else he turns over that I think you win this hand often enough to call.

Hand 2 - I'd bet enough for his call to be -EV, but i'd make it close enough to where he'd think his implied odds made it worth it. I'm not paying off any straight or flush card that hits probably.

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 - I'd bet enough for his call to be -EV, but i'd make it close enough to where he'd think his implied odds made it worth it. I'll make the play with the highest likelihood of destacking him if any straight or flush card hits.

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FYP

[djoyce003]

oops, didn't realize our hero had the full house. In that case i'd bet about 1/3 the pot so he has to chase and pray that he hits.

[TheWorstPlayer]

This is extremely transparent, does not build the pot, and does not charge him enough to draw dead. It is better to play it as if you have TPWK. He may even semi-bluff the 8 as a scare card. If you make a small bet on the turn then he will a)be wary of potential full house and b)suspect that you might be very weak and won't pay off a raise. Therefore, he will be less likely to raise if he hits his draw and you won't get paid as well.

[chumsferd]

hand 1: Call. If LAG has been routinely calling preflop overbets with less than great hands, then a smart-tricky player might push with AA here. Of course, they may also push with a fair bit less than that, assuming they will still be favourite over LAGs calling hands. Also, I think the trickier play with AA is smooth calling here, so he wouldn't be living up to his (read: my understanding of a) tricky image if he pushed and showed AA in this spot.

Hand 2: Whatever you would bet with tptk, 1/2-3/4 pot?

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Insta. Slowrolling is for nubs. Wait. You are asking how long you should take before calling right? NO? You're asking IF you should call?

I put villain on AK here a vast majority of the time. You said you HAVEN'T LRR yet. I can't see a push here with AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

you guys see a solid player shoving 300+ bb's in the middle in a massive pot overbet with AK? I'm not saying that this is AA all the time, but I think the call, long term, is very close EV wise and I really don't think he plays AK this way.

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

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Hand 1: Insta. Slowrolling is for nubs. Wait. You are asking how long you should take before calling right? NO? You're asking IF you should call?

I put villain on AK here a vast majority of the time. You said you HAVEN'T LRR yet. I can't see a push here with AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

you guys see a solid player shoving 300+ bb's in the middle in a massive pot overbet with AK? I'm not saying that this is AA all the time, but I think the call, long term, is very close EV wise and I really don't think he plays AK this way.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
He's probably thinking of it at 50BBs.

[kyro]

Wait, you can't see him pushing in AK like that but you can see him pushing AA like that? That's not a solid player IMO.

[Sephus]

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Hand 1: Insta. Slowrolling is for nubs. Wait. You are asking how long you should take before calling right? NO? You're asking IF you should call?

I put villain on AK here a vast majority of the time. You said you HAVEN'T LRR yet. I can't see a push here with AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

you guys see a solid player shoving 300+ bb's in the middle in a massive pot overbet with AK? I'm not saying that this is AA all the time, but I think the call, long term, is very close EV wise and I really don't think he plays AK this way.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that it's not an easy call. i would be pretty pissed if that happened to me. low EV, high variance. i would probably grit my teeth and call though. since you limped he expects you to fold close to 100% of the time and get heads up with crazy LAG.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, you can't see him pushing in AK like that but you can see him pushing AA like that? That's not a solid player IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

how would you have him play AA? I really like his line with aces.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

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This is extremely transparent, does not build the pot, and does not charge him enough to draw dead. It is better to play it as if you have TPWK. He may even semi-bluff the 8 as a scare card.

[/ QUOTE ]

given this guys characteristics, he's certainly not semibluffing a paired turn. I really agree with what you said though, and i think i really screwed it up. I bet 60, which was uncharacteristically small for me, and he folded.

fim

[imported_anacardo]

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[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Insta. Slowrolling is for nubs. Wait. You are asking how long you should take before calling right? NO? You're asking IF you should call?

I put villain on AK here a vast majority of the time. You said you HAVEN'T LRR yet. I can't see a push here with AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

you guys see a solid player shoving 300+ bb's in the middle in a massive pot overbet with AK? I'm not saying that this is AA all the time, but I think the call, long term, is very close EV wise and I really don't think he plays AK this way.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're the small blind, and you're holding aces. I'd absolutely do this with aces. Some of my biggest pots have been won this way.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Insta. Slowrolling is for nubs. Wait. You are asking how long you should take before calling right? NO? You're asking IF you should call?

I put villain on AK here a vast majority of the time. You said you HAVEN'T LRR yet. I can't see a push here with AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

you guys see a solid player shoving 300+ bb's in the middle in a massive pot overbet with AK? I'm not saying that this is AA all the time, but I think the call, long term, is very close EV wise and I really don't think he plays AK this way.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about this some more and I am starting to lean towards him having AA most of the time. I am assuming he probably views you as good, since you both have deep stacks and good stats and probably have been playing together for a while. If he just want's to isolate the bad lag for his stack he should realize that you would fold your marginal holdings to a bet of about ~300 - 500 as a squeeze as oppossed to the all in no? He of course can't put you on KK here (unless he has the new delta gamma V8.34 patter mapper /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) but he can't rule it out completey. Why the heck would he move all in with a deep stack behind him left to act. He may have just said F it, I don't want to play this AA oop against a good player I'll just shove it in and win a quick ~300 off the bad LAG, plus he may get luck and have you pick up a hand that might try and "pick-off" his isolation raise.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
He may have just said F it, I don't want to play this AA oop against a good player I'll just shove it in and win a quick ~300 off the bad LAG.

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This is exactly what i'd be thinking if I were in his shoes and had aces...

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

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He may have just said F it, I don't want to play this AA oop against a good player I'll just shove it in and win a quick ~300 off the bad LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what i'd be thinking if I were in his shoes and had aces...

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't see this. If that were his thought process, he should make it $100 straight and give the LAG a chance to come over the top. You don't make money by asking maniacs to CALL. You challenge them and entice them to BET. And that should be enough to force out the good player, too.

[fimbulwinter]

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He may have just said F it, I don't want to play this AA oop against a good player I'll just shove it in and win a quick ~300 off the bad LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what i'd be thinking if I were in his shoes and had aces...

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't see this. If that were his thought process, he should make it $100 straight and give the LAG a chance to come over the top. You don't make money by asking maniacs to CALL. You challenge them and entice them to BET. And that should be enough to force out the good player, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

you think a solid player is dying to create a 75 BB pot out of position against two loose players while essentially giving his hand away for 20BB's? I don't.

fim

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys see a solid player shoving 300+ bb's in the middle in a massive pot overbet with AK? I'm not saying that this is AA all the time, but I think the call, long term, is very close EV wise and I really don't think he plays AK this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't think I'm being a pedant, but you didn't say he was solid you just said he was tricky. I think the tricky aspect should lean you towards calling and the solid aspect (obviously) towards folding (hence my earlier reply).

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't think I'm being a pedant, but you didn't say he was solid you just said he was tricky.

[/ QUOTE ]

nuh uh. (check OP)

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

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He may have just said F it, I don't want to play this AA oop against a good player I'll just shove it in and win a quick ~300 off the bad LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what i'd be thinking if I were in his shoes and had aces...

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't see this. If that were his thought process, he should make it $100 straight and give the LAG a chance to come over the top. You don't make money by asking maniacs to CALL. You challenge them and entice them to BET. And that should be enough to force out the good player, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

you think a solid player is dying to create a 75 BB pot out of position against two loose players while essentially giving his hand away for 20BB's? I don't.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
If he raises to $100 and shows you his AA, do you call?

[fimbulwinter]

him and the LAG got it in, lag had 88, SB had KK.

still undecided on this one. only thing im convinced of is that it's not an easy choice and has huge variance.

fim

[chumsferd]

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I hope you don't think I'm being a pedant, but you didn't say he was solid you just said he was tricky.

[/ QUOTE ]

nuh uh. (check OP)

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooops my apologies... I read...

[ QUOTE ]
...lag makes it 25, one call, solid (29/14), tricky SB (1300) pushes...

[/ QUOTE ]

...as: LAG makes it 25, one call by a solid 29/14, and then the tricky SB raises... my bad, sry.

[BobboFitos]

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Wait, you can't see him pushing in AK like that but you can see him pushing AA like that? That's not a solid player IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

how would you have him play AA? I really like his line with aces.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
you've never limp raised before.

this is results oriented thinking (you actually HAVING KK this time)

I dont think pushing pf with deep stacks with anything but AA is smart, and I dont think pushing with deep stacks massive overbet with AA is smart.

[Dr. StrangeloveX]

Ditto, instamuck here.

[Voltron87]

1 im calling
2 check call, check raise river all in


3 definitely agree about this. i played about 1/3 the hands/ time as you for about 1/2 the profit. and i even missed some good chances. when you run well in this game, you run well. i have not ran this well for about 2 months, and i play a lot. keep playing the a game people, this game takes a long time to even out.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
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He may have just said F it, I don't want to play this AA oop against a good player I'll just shove it in and win a quick ~300 off the bad LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what i'd be thinking if I were in his shoes and had aces...

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't see this. If that were his thought process, he should make it $100 straight and give the LAG a chance to come over the top. You don't make money by asking maniacs to CALL. You challenge them and entice them to BET. And that should be enough to force out the good player, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

you think a solid player is dying to create a 75 BB pot out of position against two loose players while essentially giving his hand away for 20BB's? I don't.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
If he raises to $100 and shows you his AA, do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yo, I just wanted to come back to this point, because I think it is an important one. If he raises to $100, the good player CAN'T call because he KNOWS that the short stack will push and there is still enough left for his push to re-open the betting. Does this affect anyone's thinking (it was a large part of why I liked $100).

[Triumph36]

Granted I read the results, big mistake, but..

With Hand 1, does SB think that you limped in with a big hand looking to limp-reraise against the lag? Probably not. He's probably looking to isolate the LAG and drive everyone out. I know I would make this move with a wide range of hands if the LAG raises every hand and is liable to call all ins with Broadway cards and low pocket pairs.