A concept I don't understand

[TylerK]

Party Poker (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...?

For those of you who have memorized SSH, this is almost identical to one of the situations in the postflop play section. I know I am supposed to bet here, but I don't know why. And if I do bet and get called, what do I do for the rest of the hand?

[shant]

First, fix the preflop action. Then, bet, and see what they do. Also, reads would help here. If they check to me on the turn again, I'm betting a lot of cards that fall.

[TylerK]

It won't let me edit my post for some reason, here's the fixed hand.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero?

All the players in the hand have VP$IP &gt; 30, all pretty donkish.

[TylerK]

I understand what TO do, but I'm having a problem grasping the WHY. That's really what I'm looking for is the concept behind the bet.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand what TO do, but I'm having a problem grasping the WHY. That's really what I'm looking for is the concept behind the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha. In my original post I thought you were last to act, so ignore my turn card comments.

I think the simple explanation for why you bet here is you may have the best hand.

[OnkelHotte]

the concept is pretty easy. with ur better midpair ur have the best hand on the flop very often. in your case vs 5 opponents this is indeed a tough spot. but against 3 or less opponents this is a clear bet!

[jjacky]

which page is it?

you'r against 5 player whith just medium poket pair and pot isn't big.

check/fold flop.

if you havn't best hand now, you havn't enogph outs to improve. even if you have best hand, your opnents have too many outs (together) to beat you on tern or river.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
All the players in the hand have VP$IP &gt; 30, all pretty donkish.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against 5 players of this type I think this is a pretty easy check/fold. I don't think that a flop bet isn't horrible but, I definitely wouldn't categorize it as required. The big factor here is the number of opponents.

[axioma]

edited after i read the fixed PF action.

[MrEngenic]

Two people behind him. If against the blind it's an easy bet on the flop and probably turn as well.

[axioma]

yeah i thought he was just against the blinds from his origninal post.

[TylerK]

In the case where I do have the best hand, I would think I am dealing with severe reverse implied odds. Yes, no?

I'm glad to see that not everyone thinks this is a clear bet, but I'm wondering why SSH says that it is.

[smokingrobot]

A bet here would be called most likely with overcards or a pair. Nobody is going to slow play (rarely) a pair of 10s.
So if you get C/R'ed, fold. If you get called, and they check the turn (showing weakness), you would probably want to bet again since you most likely have the best hand now.

Now, TPTK might call you down to the flop, but wouldnt any TPTK here have showed more aggression PF, or at least by the turn? I would think so, but i aint rich from poker yet, its just my take on the advice.

Edit: with 5 players, any action on the turn is a definite fold for me. Also your flop bet may thin the field.

I say its an probe bet if anything.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
In the case where I do have the best hand, I would think I am dealing with severe reverse implied odds. Yes, no?

I'm glad to see that not everyone thinks this is a clear bet, but I'm wondering why SSH says that it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, SSHE says to bet against few opponents when checked to. This is a different situation due to the # of opponents.

[TylerK]

Hand quiz, page 270 of SSHE.
You limp under the gun with 7h7s. Two players limp behind you, the small blind calls, and the big blind checks (5 small bets). The flop is Jc 6c 4s. The small blind bets and the big blind calls.

Fold. The pot is small. Two players like their hands enough to bet and call. Two more are yet to act.

...

(Important: There is a big difference between betting and calling. Pocket pairs just above the second highest flop card exemplify this point. In this example if the hand had been checked to you, you should definately bet.)

[deucesevenoff]

Since you're out of position, why not just check on the flop and use the action behind you to judge where you're at?

If there is any significant action then just check/fold. If it gets checked around or checked to a late position better who you feel may be trying to steal the pot then check raise and bet the turn (feel free to let me know if you think that's too aggro). If the flop gets checked around entirely then a turn bet against a brick (admittedly any card 8 or above is not really a brick. But even if an overcard comes that is not a guarantee that it hit one of your opponents) would be appropriate IMO. In late position though, given the same action and board I'd definately bet the flop.

The difference between the example in SSH and here is that in that hand (page 270) you were able to use the betting in front of you to gain information. Here that is not possible.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

The only way I am continuing here is if it's checked around and a total rag hits the turn, or if it's checked to the last player, he bets, the SB and BB fold to me, and I can CR him to (probably) get it heads up.

~ Tilts

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you're out of position, why not just check on the flop and use the action behind you to judge where you're at?

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason is that if you have the best hand, the action behind you may check all the way around and then you just gave a free card to a large field many of whom have a good number of outs to beat you.

I'm not saying that I think checking is wrong, just that that is the reason why you would bet.

[TylerK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you're out of position, why not just check on the flop and use the action behind you to judge where you're at?

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason is that if you have the best hand, the action behind you may check all the way around and then you just gave a free card to a large field many of whom have a good number of outs to beat you.

I'm not saying that I think checking is wrong, just that that is the reason why you would bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the reasoning.

But given that an overcard is very likely to come on the turn, are we going to check/fold to an overcard? Otherwise, there seem to be, again, reverse implied odds involved.

[chief444]

I'd value bet this...you likely have the best hand and the board isn't very coordinated. I don't mind a check though as long as you don't fold for one bet. I'd definitely bet if it were say a K64 rainbow board because the bet makes it tough for any two card combinations 8-Q to call. If I check/called I'd often lead a favorable turn card. The only time I'd check/fold for one is if the bet came from a very passive opponent.

The other thing is SB and BB would probably bet a T.

[jrbick]

[ QUOTE ]
But given that an overcard is very likely to come on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it coming more than 32% of the time? Someone correct me if that number is wrong ( 15 paint / 47 remaining = ~32%) (assuming that you mean "paint" when you say "over cards" (villain holds at least 1 and this will probably be less since more may be in play right now). So 60% of the time you see a safe T for your pair.

[soweak.]

You have to bet here to give the other players a chance to fold. Checking around here is horrible, because you will never know where everyone else is in the hand.

You will also have to decide, based on your opponent, if you should go to a showdown with them.

[TylerK]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking around here is horrible, because you will never know where everyone else is in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree that it's horrible if the flop checks through, but I don't think I agree with your reason.

[Carmine]

Anyone consider going for a check-raise on the flop assuming the table is at least aggresive enough to get a positional bet from button or a lead from bottom or middle pair

A flop bet here is good for many reasons:

The blinds haven't showed any strength...yet.

The texture of the flop is very favorable to your hand. It's not connected and probably hit no one.

Calling stations will call with just overcards, backdoor draws, middle or bottom pair and the other irrational junk.

This hand is easy to get away from if you receive any heat. So you actually minimize your reverse implied odds.

If you get called in 3 spots, you'll probably have to check fold the turn, unless you pick something up. 2 spots, you should lead the turn and check-call (you would love a free SD) the river if your still out of position and check behind if you do happen to buy the button.

It's good for table image if you get to show this down and indeed lose. Your opponents will call you down in future situations with weak hands.

Hope this helped.

[oreogod]

easy bet.

Why?

Glad u asked. You have better than second pair, two players checked to you, the pots small, some will at least fold improving your chances of winning this...its a clear value bet as is. So be a man, listen to some Tool and bet this baby.

Now say u get called in 2-3 spots. You can check/fold the turn (dont like this option) but depending on the card that comes I bet/fold the turn (my first choice for what I do on the turn). Especially if its the SB and BB that call u.

You would hate to be check-raising the flop with the worst hand here. Plus, when you do this, you scare off the fish and we don't reap their overcard, crappy draw calls, and the only hands that will call us down are ones that can beat 77.

You get a better price by betting out the flop and making the best decision you can at the turn.

Why check-raise, when a flop bet will tell us all we need to know?

[callmedonnie]

You bet because you may have the best hand. What's tough is that you probably won't fold the entire field behind you, and there are a lot of cards that can hit the turn and beat you. That is where reading the player is important.

If you get raised versus a tight player, folding may be optimum. You may hit a five, giving you an open ended to go with your two outs which could be very decptive.

The point is, you can't just bet TPTK. You have to be more active and aggressive in the pots you are in.

[DcifrThs]

the 6th player is what makes this bet closer than if there were only 2 players to act behind you. combined they have 4 cards, now there are 6 cards behind you and limpers often hit the J/T/Q. i think HERE is a check fold but if you take away a limper then you bet. you are ahead of the blinds here almost every time and you bet to fold out overs and get calls from 2nd pairs onthe flop who fear you may be bluffing.

if you are raised, you can fold.

now with 6 players, its much much closer b/c if those guys call to the river, you will very likely lose the hand. you want the hand to end there. with all 30vpipers and "donk"ey play, that probability of ending the hand there is small. that being said, i think this is a bet. its very close, but you should bet it. with 1 more limper you simply have to check and fold imo. maybe ed will jump in here but i dont think he has that much time as of late.

hope this helps.

-Barron

[chief444]

I misread it and thought it was 5-handed. Yeah I think with this many I agree with Barron especially considering the opponents are loose.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

Against 5 players of this type I think this is a pretty easy check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible, crunchy. Terrible.

[someday]

for me this is a clear bet.

added bonus that this hand is easy to get away from if need be.