heads up w/ a marginal hand vs. a lag

[chopchoi]

I've recetly started playing N/L, and one situation that gives me trouble is being heads up vs. a lag with a good, but not great, hand. In limit I can just call down, but in NL that is too expensive. Here's an example:

$100 NL, 10 handed. Villain plays tight in multi-way posts, but is very aggressive heads up. He raises PF at about half of the time when it is folded to him in MP or LP. he always raises when his opponent bets into him. His style has been workin quite well, as he has more than doubled his buy-in.

I'm BB with Q /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif. Lag open-raises from MP for $3, his standard amount. It folds to me, and I call. Flop is K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. What do I do? I feel like my hand is too good to muck, but I know he's going to play back if I bet, and I don't really feel that it is strong enough to re-raise with.

[imported_anacardo]

As far as I can tell, nobody in this forum has a good answer to this question.

Any further information? What does he do when you come over the top? Is he willing to put all his chips in when way behind any reasonable hand?

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I can tell, nobody in this forum has a good answer to this question.

Any further information? What does he do when you come over the top? Is he willing to put all his chips in when way behind any reasonable hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

given his raise position, defending with QTs is not a good idea. you have two potentially dominated pair cards and will likely flop a lot of draws, all of which play like crap OOP aginst a lag.

fold preflop is the correct answer. play a lot of pots with position to take his stack.

fim

[ajmargarine]

You make a great read on villian. But, then you choose to play a cheesy holding OOP heads-up?!? Wait until you have position on guys like these. Just be patient.

[imported_anacardo]

Right. I referred to the general problem of "marginal holding vs. LAG," not this specific question, with which I should have been more specific.

I will agree with the consensus here and say that with a non-premium holding, position is an absolute necessity for making a stand against this type of player. I would be highly in favor of your preflop call with position, as I would with nearly any quality drawing hand, but think it far more trouble than it's worth without it.

[DrPublo]

FWIW my general line is to check/call the flop and lead any turn.

The Doc

[pokernicus]

One way to mix up your play here is to check-raise. (I am expecting that since your opponent raised pre-flop and you describe him as a lag, then he is likely to make a continuation bet on the flop). If you're feeling bold, lead the turn if he calls on the flop (praying he folds, of course). I think given the texture of the flop and your mediocre holdings, this is a borderline situation for taking such a stand.

Part of the purpose for doing this is to establish a table image that you can't be pushed around easily. You have to pick your spots selectively since this type of approach can be costly if you're wrong and are up against a real hand...

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
I've recetly started playing N/L, and one situation that gives me trouble is being heads up vs. a lag with a good, but not great, hand. In limit I can just call down, but in NL that is too expensive. Here's an example:

$100 NL, 10 handed. Villain plays tight in multi-way posts, but is very aggressive heads up. He raises PF at about half of the time when it is folded to him in MP or LP. he always raises when his opponent bets into him. His style has been workin quite well, as he has more than doubled his buy-in.

I'm BB with Q /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif. Lag open-raises from MP for $3, his standard amount. It folds to me, and I call. Flop is K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. What do I do? I feel like my hand is too good to muck, but I know he's going to play back if I bet, and I don't really feel that it is strong enough to re-raise with.

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs pickup real hands just as often as the rest of us. Don't defend your blind with this holding. If this situation played out thousands of times, every course of action other than folding would be break even at best and probably -EV.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as I can tell, nobody in this forum has a good answer to this question.

Any further information? What does he do when you come over the top? Is he willing to put all his chips in when way behind any reasonable hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

given his raise position, defending with QTs is not a good idea. you have two potentially dominated pair cards and will likely flop a lot of draws, all of which play like crap OOP aginst a lag.

fold preflop is the correct answer. play a lot of pots with position to take his stack.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

I definetly do NOT think folding preflop is the correct answer. Folding this flop, though, is. Everyone on this forum bases their actions on results of what they see the poster posts. You've got to be objective, and i'd call this preflop all day long.

Now if you had posted the flop was X/images/graemlins/club.gif X/images/graemlins/club.gif blank (or even the blank a queen) it would be "push/call" all around from the peanut gallery.

Commenting on your position, a hand is a hand, but hands in this position doesn't matter against a LAG.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've recetly started playing N/L, and one situation that gives me trouble is being heads up vs. a lag with a good, but not great, hand. In limit I can just call down, but in NL that is too expensive. Here's an example:

$100 NL, 10 handed. Villain plays tight in multi-way posts, but is very aggressive heads up. He raises PF at about half of the time when it is folded to him in MP or LP. he always raises when his opponent bets into him. His style has been workin quite well, as he has more than doubled his buy-in.

I'm BB with Q /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif. Lag open-raises from MP for $3, his standard amount. It folds to me, and I call. Flop is K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. What do I do? I feel like my hand is too good to muck, but I know he's going to play back if I bet, and I don't really feel that it is strong enough to re-raise with.

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs pickup real hands just as often as the rest of us. Don't defend your blind with this holding. If this situation played out thousands of times, every course of action other than folding would be break even at best and probably -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have the numbers for that?

[Miles Ahead]

He's right, I think. EV is either very low or negative for QTs in the BB. Folding pre-flop to the raise is the right move, in my opinion.

[imported_anacardo]

Watch as in the sober light of day I about-face my position yet again.

In the big blind w/ little suited broadway vs. a LAG? I'm always calling that raise (and it would be my default decision for any player with a full stack, barring notes that they're A)extremely tight raisers and B) can still get away from their premium cards.)

I'm not thrilled if the flop comes Q-high; check-raising the flop seems like the fastest way to find out where you're at in that situation. T-high, I'm somewhat happier. Anything bigger (two pair or better, monster draw) and I'm looking to get it all in the middle as soon as I can.

As is, I would reluctantly fold this flop, but it wouldn't take much (no flush draw, for example) to convince me to get some money in.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
I've recetly started playing N/L, and one situation that gives me trouble is being heads up vs. a lag with a good, but not great, hand. In limit I can just call down, but in NL that is too expensive. Here's an example:

$100 NL, 10 handed. Villain plays tight in multi-way posts, but is very aggressive heads up. He raises PF at about half of the time when it is folded to him in MP or LP. he always raises when his opponent bets into him. His style has been workin quite well, as he has more than doubled his buy-in.

I'm BB with Q /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif. Lag open-raises from MP for $3, his standard amount. It folds to me, and I call. Flop is K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. What do I do? I feel like my hand is too good to muck, but I know he's going to play back if I bet, and I don't really feel that it is strong enough to re-raise with.

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs pickup real hands just as often as the rest of us. Don't defend your blind with this holding. If this situation played out thousands of times, every course of action other than folding would be break even at best and probably -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have the numbers for that?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, unfortunately I don't. I'm just looking at the situation logically. When you decide to play this type of hand in this position against this type of player, you will probably fair poorly because: most flops will miss your hand and your LAG opponent will bet you off. Those times you do hit your hand somewhat (top pair), you will probably win a small pot. Those times you hit a straight or flush, your skill will determine how much you can extract. The trouble will come from those times when you make middle pair or a draw and have no idea where you stand against your opponent. The losses you incur in these times combined with the times you miss the flop outright will be difficult to overcome.

Overall, the way to beat a LAG is not to play at him OOP with a slightly better than average hand. And, this is exactly what you are trying to do in this hand.

[imported_anacardo]

That's one skilled LAG you're describing. The essence of LAG-itude is that he'll bet strong and raise with air. That's what makes him a LAG.

[Godfather80]

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That's one skilled LAG you're describing. The essence of LAG-itude is that he'll bet strong and raise with air. That's what makes him a LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

And are you really able to take advantage of that considering you are OOP with a weak hand? And, I repeat, LAGs catch real hands just as often as any other player.

[ajmargarine]

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That's one skilled LAG you're describing. The essence of LAG-itude is that he'll bet strong and raise with air. That's what makes him a LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is? Oh my.....I've just come to realize that I am a LAG. Is there some kind of pill that I can take?

[imported_anacardo]

Fold preflop and call me in the morning, I guess.

I meant to imply compulsive, habitual loose action, if that's not clear, though one would think it would be.

[Godfather80]

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Fold preflop and call me in the morning, I guess.

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Zing. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif