flopped bottom two pair - ace on board. How's the flop line?

[pokerlaw]

No reads - 18 person (2 table) tourney

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1230)
UTG+1 (t1440)
MP1 (t1450)
MP2 (t1540)
MP3 (t1440)
CO (t2510)
Button (t800)
SB (t1590)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t40</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t40, Button calls t40, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t20, UTG calls t20.

Flop: (t210) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t180</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t360</font>, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t700</font>, MP2 calls t340.

Turn: (t1610) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t800 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2410

[lastchance]

I shove preflop. Check/folding half your stack just plain sucks.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I shove preflop. Check/folding half your stack just plain sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, I thought about pushing...would prob have gotten called too. sigh.

[ldavidjm]

That's rough, I probably would push the flop, at the same time you've got a strong holding and the smaller reraise makes it that much easier to get his whole stack in on the turn. I think both lines are OK, but the way it worked out I kick the cat and fold.

I think you played this hand fine, it's just too bad that your hand got counterfeited. Unless he's just some sort of kamikaze idiot that can't let go of JJ on a terrible flop, you have to be beat. One thing you might have tried is to just call the min-reraise to make sure that the next card off isn't terrible for your hand--which it unfortunately was. This could have saved you that last reraise. On the other hand, had you gotten all in on the flop and he had a decent A, then you would get all the money in with what was most likely a huge favorite, only to be sucked out on once again. So, I guess the glass if half full and you were able to play on.

[durron597]

Easy easy easy easy push on the flop after you get raised.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I shove preflop. Check/folding half your stack just plain sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't believe no one noticed this.

seriously, i think viable lines are bet-push or bet-call (and then c/r a-i on the turn). betting and putting in the little reraise is kinda lame, imo.

i think bet-push is best, as Ax has a lot of outs against you, so checking the turn to him is kinda scary.

also, i'd fold pre-flop.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I shove preflop. Check/folding half your stack just plain sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't believe no one noticed this.

seriously, i think viable lines are bet-push or bet-call (and then c/r a-i on the turn). betting and putting in the little reraise is kinda lame, imo.

i think bet-push is best, as Ax has a lot of outs against you, so checking the turn to him is kinda scary.

also, i'd fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

fold PF w/ those odds?

As to pushing to the raise, I agree that I should have shoved. I was gonna push to lead on the turn, but...

[schwza]

you're not really getting odds nearly as good as you think. if you flop 1 pair your hand is garbage even though it might be a winner if you went to showdown. and more people just means there are more people to flop sets when you flop 2 pair.

[tigerite]

I actually agree, I would fold preflop but hey.

[RobGW]

[ QUOTE ]
fold PF w/ those odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have no straight possible and a one card flush could prove disastrous for you. Flopping 1 pair of Q with weak kicker or a pair of 7 will just get you into trouble. So are you hoping to flop a set or 2 pair. What are the odds of you flopping trips? What are the odds of you flopping 2 pair? Once you get the answer you'll see that folding PF is indeed the correct play.

[Uppercut]

[ QUOTE ]
also, i'd fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. And for a while I thought I was the only one who immediately thought this when reading the OP.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold PF w/ those odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have no straight possible and a one card flush could prove disastrous for you. Flopping 1 pair of Q with weak kicker or a pair of 7 will just get you into trouble. So are you hoping to flop a set or 2 pair. What are the odds of you flopping trips? What are the odds of you flopping 2 pair? Once you get the answer you'll see that folding PF is indeed the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

flopping a Q or a 7 won't get me into trouble, I get rid of it. essentially, the MRR and the callers tell me that people like their starting hands, but are not betting right. I am hoping to flop exactly what you said - 2 pair or trips.

If i do, i hope to get a nice hand to give me all their chips. If not, I lose t20, boo-hoo!

This is an 18 person tourney and if I did win this hand, my stack is in great shape for making the final table. If the original raise was to t60, i muck, but for 20 more chips, I will continue to play this hand...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
you're not really getting odds nearly as good as you think. if you flop 1 pair your hand is garbage even though it might be a winner if you went to showdown. and more people just means there are more people to flop sets when you flop 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the problem with calling small raises/completing in the blinds is that we are sometimes "fooled" by apparent strong pot odds when really they are not as good as you think. How many flops are you really comfortable with with hands like Q7o? QQ7 is nice, 77Q etc...but most of the time, when you do catch a piece, you will be completely lost...and since you had such "great odds", this by definition means that there are many in the pot and therefore flopping TP with a 7 kicker and such can be really scary and tough to play multiway.

The pot odds needed to give you the flops you would be comfortable with just are not there most of the time, and Ill usually toss hands like this. COnversely, and this may be counterintuitive, hands like 76s T8s 33 etc...which, HU are actually weaker hands to showdown, are much better to play because they can so easily become disguised monsters...and have many more flops that will do so, therefore giving you better pot odds preflop (and much better implied odds!).

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
COnversely, and this may be counterintuitive, hands like 76s T8s 33 etc...which, HU are actually weaker hands to showdown, are much better to play because they can so easily become disguised monsters...and have many more flops that will do so, therefore giving you better pot odds preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

pooh - I agree 100% that the hands you mentioned are way better to call with - in fact, the hands you mentioned are ones that I love to limp on the button w/ 3-4 limpers in front of me. Q7o is definetly borderline for calling PF, but I like the call give my "great odds."

yeah, maybe it isn't the *best* play and I am a little too high on the odds I am getting compared to the hand value, but I still like calling here. its only t20 chips, and I don't play many hands at all on the early levels...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
COnversely, and this may be counterintuitive, hands like 76s T8s 33 etc...which, HU are actually weaker hands to showdown, are much better to play because they can so easily become disguised monsters...and have many more flops that will do so, therefore giving you better pot odds preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

pooh - I agree 100% that the hands you mentioned are way better to call with - in fact, the hands you mentioned are ones that I love to limp on the button w/ 3-4 limpers in front of me. Q7o is definetly borderline for calling PF, but I like the call give my "great odds."

yeah, maybe it isn't the *best* play and I am a little too high on the odds I am getting compared to the hand value, but I still like calling here. its only t20 chips, and I don't play many hands at all on the early levels...

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's my point...you really are not getting odds a lot with this hand because if you add up all of the calls with hands like this and then look at chips won, you are behind. I almost guarantee it. And that my friend is the bottom line...what are odds otherwise if not this.

EDIT: I forgot to mention how big implied odds are here too...Q7 has such huge reverse implied odds even if you are getting odds to call, you are so often 2nd best that the times you make a big hit with it are negated by hands like the one you posted. Granted, the A on the turn is not a likely event and Ill take two pair anyday...but my point is if you ran a speadsheet on this hand and position and action, you will see that over 1000s of hands, you should be behind or barely even. And also, "even" for me is no good, because all of those times Ive lost a little in chips is worse than all of those times Ive gained a little in chips. At this stage in a SNG-especially a two table, chips lost are worth more than those gained.