The Overcall Chokehold

[QTip]

I made a post with some material from Caiffone's "Improve Your Poker" about when to bluff. It had to do with the position of the player that you believe has you beat. It makes things very difficult for them when they have several players behind them.

This is the first time that I've had the opportunity to do so. The PFRer here did not play overcards aggressively nor underpairs for that matter. He has a TPTK or an overpair here, and I'm about 98% sure his hand is better than mine. So many times in the past I would just check this and give it up. However, almost every other player in this hand is a fish and could be calling with whatever...it's worth the shot. So...I put him in the "Overcall Chokehold" TM (Officially named and coined by QTip /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Anyway...what do you think?

Party Poker (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

3 limpers, I limp, sb raises, bb folds, everyone calls.


Flop: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

sb bets, everyone calls

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

sb bets, 1 limpers folds, 2 limpers call, I call

River: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Everyone checks to me, I bet

[Argus]

I don't like it very much because villain gets to act first after you bet. If you are confidant that he has you beaten, don't bet. He won't fold the winner here. If you had a better position to put callers ahead of him that might induce an incorrect fold because villain is observant enough not to overcall then I like it a bit more. But even then the play is marginal, because what opponent is knowlegeable enough not to overcall, but weak enough to fold a winner because some weak calling players called too?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it very much because villain gets to act first after you bet. If you are confidant that he has you beaten, don't bet. He won't fold the winner here. If you had a better position to put callers ahead of him that might induce an incorrect fold because villain is observant enough not to overcall then I like it a bit more. But even then the play is marginal, because what opponent is knowlegeable enough not to overcall, but weak enough to fold a winner because some weak calling players called too?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he will fold here because he doesn't have the sand to raise and get rid of the overcallers with his 1 pair. That's what this is all about.

[chief444]

Owen,

He won't raise because he knows they'll never lay down an ace and they very likely don't have an ace or they would have bet. I think it is a tough call for him though as you say. But if I were him I'd much rather call than raise.

Let me ask this...why did you call the turn? I think there are two better options. You're either ahead often enough to call down or drawing dead. If you're ahead often enough to call down then raising is better. The only reason I can see for the call is if you know this opponent will check the river with anything worse. But you say you were 98% sure he had a better hand so if that's the case I just don't get the call.

Matt

edit...OK obviously you have two outs not drawing dead but still the argument stands.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Owen,

He won't raise because he knows they'll never lay down an ace and they very likely don't have an ace or they would have bet. I think it is a tough call for him though as you say. But if I were him I'd much rather call than raise.

Let me ask this...why did you call the turn? I think there are two better options. You're either ahead often enough to call down or drawing dead. If you're ahead often enough to call down then raising is better. The only reason I can see for the call is if you know this opponent will check the river with anything worse. But you say you were 98% sure he had a better hand so if that's the case I just don't get the call.

Matt

edit...OK obviously you have two outs not drawing dead but still the argument stands.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I mean. He's got KK-JJ here, and I'm beat. This is the only way I can see of having any chance of winning this pot.

Let me think more about your question.

[Paxosmotic]

I remember the technique you posted, but I have to divert your attention for a minute. Are you sure you couldn't find a raise preflop, on the flop, or on the turn? You have a hand that will play well in a multiway pot, and then you went and flopped TPRK (top pair reasonable kicker, see what I did there? Wit. All wit.) I think you owe it to yourself to raise at least once in this hand, if only for the little QTips of the world.

Edit : The lack of color threw me off, SB raised preflop. I'll leave this up as today's monument of stupidity. This is two days in a row I've looked like a dink infront of all of SS. Three days in a row and they revoke my pool priviledges. Argh.

[chief444]

Maybe I wasn't very clear. I actually think the river bet is OK, although it's not going to work often IMO. When he checks he's probably thinking cheap showdown. It may work often enough to be profitable. You may not even have the second best hand though although likely.

My biggest issue though was with the turn. I just don't get the call after the board pairs.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Owen,

He won't raise because he knows they'll never lay down an ace and they very likely don't have an ace or they would have bet. I think it is a tough call for him though as you say. But if I were him I'd much rather call than raise.

Let me ask this...why did you call the turn? I think there are two better options. You're either ahead often enough to call down or drawing dead. If you're ahead often enough to call down then raising is better. The only reason I can see for the call is if you know this opponent will check the river with anything worse. But you say you were 98% sure he had a better hand so if that's the case I just don't get the call.

Matt

edit...OK obviously you have two outs not drawing dead but still the argument stands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to confess a humiliating fact about the turn because I do remember what I was thinking at the time. I was thinking my Jacks were still outs. Obviously with the board paring that's not true....so...that's how I got where I'm at on the river.

Let's talk about the river though....let's say the turn was a blank. What would you think about the hand at that point? Are you still raising or calling? If calling, do you like the bet on the river when checked to for the reasons that I've given? Wouldn't it be very tempting for a player to lay down like QQ here with all those overcallers behind him?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember the technique you posted, but I have to divert your attention for a minute. Are you sure you couldn't find a raise preflop, on the flop, or on the turn? You have a hand that will play well in a multiway pot, and then you went and flopped TPRK (top pair reasonable kicker, see what I did there? Wit. All wit.) I think you owe it to yourself to raise at least once in this hand, if only for the little QTips of the world.

Edit : The lack of color threw me off, SB raised preflop. I'll leave this up as today's monument of stupidity. This is two days in a row I've looked like a dink infront of all of SS. Three days in a row and they revoke my pool priviledges. Argh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suited I raise it no matter the # of limpers. However, os, I just don't think you have much to go on. The turn...now there's another story, but I've already confessed my shame there....

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't get the call after the board pairs.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know...that sucked. Read my other response thought and let me know your thoughts there please.

[chief444]

The thing is though...he doesn't have overcallers. He has a bunch of loose opponents who he knows after they check definitely don't have an 8 and aren't very likely to have an Ace either. So it's really just whether he believes you or not. As I said in the other post I don't think it's bad. I'd glance at his showdown numbers first though. I'd like it a little better though if the board weren't paired and you had a Q or K kicker because the loose idiots in the middle will still call with a T and you'll end up chopping if he does lay down.

If the turn was a blank then I can see calling but basically a lot of the times I'm planning to call on the river anyway I'll raise the turn multiway because you gain more when you are ahead and it's a strong play that doesn't get 3-bet or led into often. I just assumed you planned on calling the river since you called the turn here though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is though...he doesn't have overcallers. He has a bunch of loose opponents who he knows after they check definitely don't have an 8 and aren't very likely to have an Ace either. So it's really just whether he believes you or not. As I said in the other post I don't think it's bad. I'd glance at his showdown numbers first though. I'd like it a little better though if the board weren't paired and you had a Q or K kicker because the loose idiots in the middle will still call with a T and you'll end up chopping if he does lay down.

If the turn was a blank then I can see calling but basically a lot of the times I'm planning to call on the river anyway I'll raise the turn multiway because you gain more when you are ahead and it's a strong play that doesn't get 3-bet or led into often. I just assumed you planned on calling the river since you called the turn here though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...he folded, and the 1 last limper called and had QT for a chop.

I quite postive he folded the best hand there and thought the play was a great thing...now we all know the truth /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I should have folded the turn here given my knowledge of the player.

Honestly....I've made the turn raise there a lot of times planning on checking behind. I've recently been reevaluating that play and it's correct applications.

As incorrect as my turn call was, I do believe it's the only reason I got a chop out of this. I believe he would have called my raise and then I would have just checked behind on the river and lost. So...in this example, the bad play on the turn actually got me in a better position given the way it played out.

I guess sometimes sucking isn't all that bad /images/graemlins/tongue.gif