KQo in the SB... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

skoal2k4

07-21-2005, 07:48 PM

No reads here... nobody seems to be doing anything wild

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 ($99)
MP3 ($111)
CO ($136.05)
Button ($91.50)
Hero ($123.60)
BB ($100)
UTG ($75.25)
UTG+1 ($7.80)
MP1 ($95.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP3 calls $1, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets $3, BB folds, UTG calls $3, MP1 calls $3, MP3 calls $3.

Turn: ($17) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $9, UTG raises to $18, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $9.

River: ($53) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $21, UTG calls $21.

Final Pot: $95

his turn min-raise was a little odd to me. I didn't know what to make of it since that card was harmless. Once the 5 pairs on the river, I figure my Q wins the pot for me.

nrinker

07-21-2005, 08:07 PM

With no read i muck this. I dont see a draw semi bluffing you in this way. More than anything, this seems like a big hand that slowplayed the flop.

skoal2k4

07-21-2005, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With no read i muck this. I dont see a draw semi bluffing you in this way. More than anything, this seems like a big hand that slowplayed the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

on the turn raise? or check/fold the river?

Malachii

07-21-2005, 08:19 PM

Hey Skoal,

I muck this when he raises the turn. I'd pot the flop too.

skoal2k4

07-21-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Skoal,

I muck this when he raises the turn. I'd pot the flop too.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey, thanks for the reply guys... I've been getting overly aggressive with these types of situations and it's been killing me... I wasn't sure If it was just bad luck or bad play.... glad to hear it's bad play on my part... at least I can control that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wayfare

07-21-2005, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No reads here... nobody seems to be doing anything wild

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 ($99)
MP3 ($111)
CO ($136.05)
Button ($91.50)
Hero ($123.60)
BB ($100)
UTG ($75.25)
UTG+1 ($7.80)
MP1 ($95.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP3 calls $1, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets $3, BB folds, UTG calls $3, MP1 calls $3, MP3 calls $3.

Turn: ($17) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $9, UTG raises to $18, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $9.

River: ($53) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $21, UTG calls $21.

Final Pot: $95

his turn min-raise was a little odd to me. I didn't know what to make of it since that card was harmless. Once the 5 pairs on the river, I figure my Q wins the pot for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it perfectly. I don't know why you would fold to a turn min raise.

Malachii

07-21-2005, 08:35 PM

What hand smooth calls the flop and then raises the turn with two players left to act behind that you're beating here? Ignore the river action.

poboy

07-21-2005, 08:39 PM

huh? Muck to a minraise getting 5:1? Call and block the river as OP did. JMO

skoal2k4

07-21-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
huh? Muck to a minraise getting 5:1? Call and block the river as OP did. JMO

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe I'm overthinking this too much... my problem here, is that the raise came out of nowhere on a card that meant nothing. What does this usually indicate? That's the area I'm having problems with /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wayfare

07-21-2005, 10:00 PM

A flush draw, a bluff, KJ, I don't know. Point is you're not laying down TPGK for a small turn minraise on a double suited board.

Wayfare

07-21-2005, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A flush draw, a bluff, KJ, I don't know. Point is you're not laying down TPGK for a small turn minraise on a double suited board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't harrington say that action that makes no sense is usually a bluff?

pokernicus

07-21-2005, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my problem here, is that the raise came out of nowhere on a card that meant nothing. What does this usually indicate? That's the area I'm having problems with /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's one interpretation. Perhaps UTG hit the flop pretty hard -- e.g., two pair or a set. I would guess that his range of holdings include: KK, TT, 33, KT, or K3. KK seems unlikely since there was no raise pre-flop. K3 also seems a little loose for a player UTG, so is unlikely IMO. Given the way the remainder of the hand played out, I would also be inclined to rule out TT as you didn't get raised on the river. Therefore, the two most likely holdings seem to be 33 or KT.

Since you led on the flop, and since UTG was second to act, he tried to be cute and smooth call (hoping to slow play). He suspects that you caught some piece of the flop as it would be pretty unlikely for you to bluff into four other people. Also, the board contains some high cards, so it's more likely to have hit someone.

However, since two people called after UTG, he probably got nervous about draws and decided to raise the turn to protect his hand. (Especially since there may now be either a heart draw or a diamond draw, as well as a straight draw).

The min raise is interesting here. If MP1 and MP2 are on straight or flush draws, they are not getting the right pot odds to call. However, the implied odds are not too far off since it may be hard for UTG to lay down a set (if that's what he has).

On the other hand, if UTG has a set or top two pair, then even though you're getting 5:1, you're still not getting the right price to call.

In general, I would either fold this on the turn raise or check the river and fold to a large bet. However, this all depends, of course, on how you read your opponent. I've been in similar situations to these where I've called down against a weak maniac and been correct about doing so.

Malachii

07-21-2005, 10:32 PM

In my experience, anytime you get smooth called on the flop and raised on the turn, you're usually up against a set and occasionally two pair. I don't Villain bluffing with two callers behind him, and I don't Villain waiting until the turn to get aggressive with a flush draw. I agree that the immediate odds are very juicy here after the minraise, but you have to remember that you have to get through another round of betting, so your effective odds aren't very good at all.

All this adds up to a fold in my opinion.

pokernicus

07-21-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Didn't harrington say that action that makes no sense is usually a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, however, the actions to make sense for many hands. Maybe he initially intended to slowplay, and didn't expect that MP1 and MP3 would call. On the turn he raised to protect. (See my other post...)

If this was a bluff, it's a bad play for two reasons:
1) a min-raise is often not enough to get rid of the initial raiser
2) there are three others in the pot

So, I would think it's unlikely for this to be a bluff. Of course, at these limits, I'm sure we've all seen a lot of very unlikely play!

jonnyUCB

07-21-2005, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Point is you're not laying down TPGK for a small turn minraise on a double suited board.

[/ QUOTE ]

especially when you can outdraw two pair. To the OP, I usually ch/fold this river unless you know villian to bet worse hands on the river.

BobboFitos

07-21-2005, 10:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Point is you're not laying down TPGK for a small turn minraise on a double suited board.

[/ QUOTE ]

especially when you can outdraw two pair. To the OP, I usually ch/fold this river unless you know villian to bet worse hands on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think villain has kq or kj or bad king himself often here

i think it was played fine.

important note, though... someone said you cant fold with such good odds and the board texture yadda yadda, but if your plan is to call and then block bet, the turn doesn't cost you 9, it costs you 9 + block bet. something to consider.

that said, it's played well.

TheWorstPlayer

07-21-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No reads here... nobody seems to be doing anything wild

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 ($99)
MP3 ($111)
CO ($136.05)
Button ($91.50)
Hero ($123.60)
BB ($100)
UTG ($75.25)
UTG+1 ($7.80)
MP1 ($95.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP3 calls $1, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets $3, BB folds, UTG calls $3, MP1 calls $3, MP3 calls $3.

Turn: ($17) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $9, UTG raises to $18, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $9.

River: ($53) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $21, UTG calls $21.

Final Pot: $95

his turn min-raise was a little odd to me. I didn't know what to make of it since that card was harmless. Once the 5 pairs on the river, I figure my Q wins the pot for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it perfectly. I don't know why you would fold to a turn min raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

pokernicus

07-22-2005, 04:57 PM

Post the results?

skoal2k4

07-22-2005, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Post the results?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG shows T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif

pokernicus

07-26-2005, 09:21 PM

Thanks for posting that! A nice hand for discussion. I had included TT in my range of holdings up until the river play - It's surprising that he didn't raise for value. The only hands that beat him are KK or 55. KK is not likely since you didn't raise pre-flop. 55 is also unlikely as you bet into four callers on a flop with two overcards (especially a K and a T -- as people tend to play high cards, and the T fits nicely with many holdings for straight possibilities).

kingofswing

07-26-2005, 10:33 PM

I fold to turn minraise, looks like TT. But after looking at the whole line, I feel good about my chances going to the river. Why would a set not raise the flop to avoid flush? Min raise might be a crappy K checking to see if his hand is good. Either way, I'm not sure about river bet. After he flat calls it I feel good about it, but honestly, before that, a good player with a crappy K could raise you a bunch and take it down every time. I check/call a reasonable bet. But something is weird here, I call turn and river thinking I am good against a decent player. Against a donk, I don't know.

mother_brain

07-26-2005, 10:47 PM

Villians river play is baffling. Don't you have to raise this even if 99% of the time hero folds?

kingofswing

07-26-2005, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villians river play is baffling. Don't you have to raise this even if 99% of the time hero folds?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean exactly?

mother_brain

07-26-2005, 11:36 PM

I mean that villian has the third nuts and the way hero played the hand there is really no way that he can beat tens full. However, the villian chooses to smooth call the river bet rather than raise. Seems odd.