How do you prepare to mive up without actually moving up?

[steamboatin]

Might be a dumb question or worded incorrectly but other than tightening up and studying poker books, is there anyway to get ready to move up in limits without actually going up, taking a shot and seeing how it goes?

This assumes that you can move back down and regroup if things don't go very well.

[krimson]

Play your current limit at absolute if your looking for a more challenging game without risking a dent in your roll.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Might be a dumb question or worded incorrectly but other than tightening up and studying poker books, is there anyway to get ready to move up in limits without actually going up, taking a shot and seeing how it goes?

This assumes that you can move back down and regroup if things don't go very well.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's like you ask your question and then answer it all in the same post?!? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Datamine.

[steamboatin]

I like it when you guys automatically assume that party and skins are the only poker on the planet.

I don't believe you can data mine Cryptos but I would like to know if it is possible. Datamining live poker is tedious at best.

[deception5]

On suggestion I've seen for this is to play at the tougher tables at your limit. Don't sit at the table with all the fish, but rather a "bad" table full of tags.

[shant]

What kind of "move-up" are we talking about?

Moving up from 2/4 to 3/6 isn't much of a move-up, but moving from 15/30 to 30/60 is.

I say just move-up and play. If you find yourself playing bad because of the increase in money or you run bad and lose a piece of your BR, drop back down.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Datamining live poker is tedious at best.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. When I mainly played live, before I moved up from 10/20 to 20/40, I spent a lot of time observing the game. Basically, whenever I was standing around waiting to be called for a 10/20 seat, I would watch the 20. The player pool is fairly small and it is usually the same guys playing, so I definitely felt that the time spent learning the players helped me a lot. Even if the player pool is too large to gain much from learning about specific players, you at least get a feel for how the game plays in general by watching it on a few occassions. I think this is good advice. How does it only apply to Party Poker? Crypto doesn't let you watch the games before you play?

[steamboatin]

I want to get to 10-20 or 15-30 live which is probably like 5-10 online. I have been playing the Cryptos 5-10 full ring a little but it isn't going so well. I am still to loose and have a few other holes in my game.

It seems difficult to see and fix the leaks at lower limits because just playing tight preflop is enough to give you a winning edge but as you move up, you actually have to know how to play.

I read and study every book I can get and I think I am improving, but because of the short term variance it is easy to blame a loss on bad cards and difficult to tell if you won because of good play or short term luck.

[deception5]

Judging by what you're saying - preflop play may not be enough etc, I would recommend trying some shorthanded.

[steamboatin]

I always sweat the 10-20 while waiting for a 4-8 seat.

Datamining as I understand it, is opening up mulitiple tables and letting Poker Tracker record the hand histories of the tables you are observing so you will have data on those players when you happen to play against them in the future.

Cryptos don't write observed hand histories to your hard drive like Party/Skins. There maybe a hand grabber program available like some people use for Ultimat Bet and Pacific Poker.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
I say just move-up and play. If you find yourself playing bad because of the increase in money or you run bad and lose a piece of your BR, drop back down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This process can be tough mentally, but when you drop back down it really helps my confidence. I see things more clearly. etc.

[Harv72b]

If you multitable, then keeping X number of tables open at your normal limit while playing 1 table at the higher limit can help. Conversely, you could also just cut yourself down to 1 table at a time, playing only the higher limit and focusing 100% on that game. Of course this applies only to online poker.

Digging through these boards & reading some hand histories and commentary on the new level, be it online or B&M, certainly couldn't hurt.

As far as confidence goes when you first move up, set up a concrete stop loss before you play a single table at the higher limit, preferably some fraction of what you've made in the last month at your current level. Even if it's as simple as just giving yourself one 25 BB buy-in at the higher limit, and promising yourself that you'll drop back down as soon as you lose that buy-in. No matter how much you try to look at it in terms of BBs, the sheer monetary values of the higher limit will weigh on your mind as you start out, and if you know that you're "only" risking a small amount of your bankroll that can help to keep you on your normal, aggressive game. I suppose this still counts as "taking a shot", but it's a small one.

Much like "datamining" a B&M table, you can just sweat an online table at the higher limit, regardless of whether or not PT is picking up the hand histories. Watch the game, try to put the players on hands, pay attention to who raises with what when, and try to seperate the good players from the bad. Most of all, give yourself an honest estimate of how well you'd fare at that table.

I'm not familiar with the crypto sites having never played on them, but if they offer a buddy list like on party skins, then following a buddy up to a higher table will also do wonders for your confidence. This is easily applicable to B&M play, assuming you play live often enough to know a stable of regular, poor players.

[steamboatin]

I play live two nights a week but the poker rooms are large enough that you don't often play with the same players at low limits. 10-20 seems to be the lowest limit that has a small enough player base that you recognize regular players.

I don't believe I am completely outclassed at the 10-20 but I think it is enough to prevent me from being a winner. I have some winning sessions but overall I am a loser at 10-20 but I haven't logged many hours.

[brettbrettr]

All day I refrained. But now I must say: this is one dumb ass post. Sorry. I am not a decent human being.

[Entity]

I don't think there's much you can do. I just take a shot and hope to run good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[666]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's much you can do. I just take a shot and hope to run good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
Amen.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Datamining live poker is tedious at best.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. When I mainly played live, before I moved up from 10/20 to 20/40, I spent a lot of time observing the game. Basically, whenever I was standing around waiting to be called for a 10/20 seat, I would watch the 20. The player pool is fairly small and it is usually the same guys playing, so I definitely felt that the time spent learning the players helped me a lot. Even if the player pool is too large to gain much from learning about specific players, you at least get a feel for how the game plays in general by watching it on a few occassions. I think this is good advice. How does it only apply to Party Poker? Crypto doesn't let you watch the games before you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey bobby,

You play at the Muck, right? I'm starting to consider -- especially after being berated by a lot of friends -- that I should think about playing live sometime. I've only played live $2/4 with my girlfriend (at the MGM), but I'm accustomed to Party's $5/10 6max in terms of game texture, aggressiveness, and playing against other decent players. I'm almost rolled for 10/20 (~600BB), so I'm considering giving some live play a shot sometime but don't really know much about the texture at the muck or other Seattle places. What would you recommend?

[bobbyi]

I'll pm you.

[steamboatin]

Obviously you are blessed with a superior intelect, how about enlightening this dumbass on the subject?

How do you go about fixing leaks at a lower level that are only apparent when you move up? I find it difficult to work on leaks at $1-2 or $2-4 online that don't show up until you reach 5-10 or higher online or 10-20 live.

The pat answer is go up identify the leaks and move back down in limits until you have them fixed but I find it difficult to work on leaks that disappear at the lower levels.

Example;

At 10-20 live or say $5-10 online, if I am check raised on the flop, I am almost always behind and end up losing the hand. While at the lower limits live and online I am usually not behind.

I have played mostly low limits and I find it difficult not to call the check raise when I have opened the betting. This hasn't been a problem at low limits but it appears to be a serious leak at higher levels.

The players are often smarter and trickier and I have a difficult time not falling for their traps. Not all the players at 10-20 live are good but there are enough good players in the mix that it is -EV for me at my present skill level.

When I began playing live, I lost about 400 big bets before I figured out how to beat 3-6 and I would rather not drop the same amount or more learning to beat live $10-20.

So the point of this stupid post, that may not have been worded optimally is;

What is the best way to improve your game while at lower limits to prepare for a move to higher limits?

[Bluffoon]

For me taking shots works best. Play a short session and pick it apart for adjustments you need to make and try again. Rinse and repeat and pretty soon it is your regular game.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Example;

At 10-20 live or say $5-10 online, if I am check raised on the flop, I am almost always behind and end up losing the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

[ QUOTE ]
While at the lower limits live and online I am usually not behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooooo awesome.

GoT

[J. Sawyer]

I've heard the 100 play money game over at pokerroom is pretty solid, you get g00d there /images/graemlins/smile.gif...

[Ryan Z]

[ QUOTE ]


How do you go about fixing leaks at a lower level that are only apparent when you move up? I find it difficult to work on leaks at $1-2 or $2-4 online that don't show up until you reach 5-10 or higher online or 10-20 live.

The pat answer is go up identify the leaks and move back down in limits until you have them fixed but I find it difficult to work on leaks that disappear at the lower levels.



[/ QUOTE ]

Although I'm still pretty much a newby at this forum, I find it interesting that no one has pointed out that the game textures you're referring to are entirely different. What may be conceived as a leak at 5/10 may be a profitable play at 2/4. The live 3/6 game I started in and the 5/10 I moved up to are entirely different from 2/4 and 3/6 online games.

As a poker player, your #1 goal is to profit. I'm not sure if I know anyone disciplined enough to just "fix leaks" while they're sitting at a poker table. I find myself wanting to maximize profit, not just wanting to shore up my game for another limit. I'm not saying that a bad play might be a good play at a lower limit, but you really must consider the composition of the game in comparison to what you're accustomed to...i.e. more aggression, tighter players, etc. I might just be talking out of my ass at this point, but that's my take on this thread. Hope I help.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll pm you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, can you move this into a thread in B&M?

All of my live play in Seattle has been at home games and the Muck. If you have any comments about textures of other Seattle games (Tulalip, Lils, etc.) I'd like to read about them too.

[Derek in NYC]

Im not sure why you're getting so many smart assed comments, since your posts dont seem to warrant it. Anyhow, my thoughts:

1. start reviewing your 20 best/worst hands per session in terms of BB won/lost to see whether your play suffers from errors, you are playing on tilt, etc. PT's hand replayer function makes this very easy to do.

2. swear off OOT, psychology, B&M, internet, etc., and try to read and post more in SSH or HUSH.

3. find a friend who is smart at poker and talk to him about strategy and hands. see if he's willing to sweat your play online for a few hours. consider hiring a coach.

I wish I could say that I did all of these things, but I dont. But I wish I did.

As an aside, unless the 10/20 live is drastically different from the 10/20 here in NYC, if you are even remotely concerned about being "outclassed", you are probably not ready for the game. Im not much of a live player (I only have about 40 hours booked at 10/20), but my impression is that without exercising any game selectivity, you should be able to beat the game by playing ABC poker. If you did nothing other than avoid the 2-3 good players, and play solid preflop values against donators, I think you'd do fine.

[callmedonnie]

Agreed. And all day I refrained from saying that moving up in poker is like moving up in grade school. Learn to [censored] spell.

[bobbyi]

If you start a thread, I'll reply when I have the chance. A lot of people in the b&m forum are from this area, so you should get some good answers.

[Net Warrior]

I'll add my 2 cents /images/graemlins/smile.gif

First, if you're not comfortable with the stakes then you can't play well. I get comfortable when my BR is over 400 big bets. I'll sit in with the excess whenever it's 25 big bets or more. With this BR I'm able to see my chips as tools/weapons and not as money.

Second, once you're comfortable, only move up when you're playing well, when you're playing your "A" game. That implies that you are being observant and that you are able to spot which opponents you want to give action to and which opponents you want to avoid giving action to.

Third, play tighter and steal less till you have a good feel for the game.

If your BR drops below 400 bb's then drop down to built it up. If you hit a bad run of cards, drop down several levels into a major comfort zone till it's over. Protect your BR.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
If you start a thread, I'll reply when I have the chance. A lot of people in the b&m forum are from this area, so you should get some good answers.

[/ QUOTE ] seatle b&m thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2942088&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)