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unreal_nh
07-21-2005, 02:42 PM
22 on party, 2nd hand... was i a complete idiot for laying this down? please reassure me...

***** Hand History for Game 2399828185 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14126819 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, July 21, 14:22:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 14003 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: eddo776 ( $785 )
Seat 5: Drewhafire ( $860 )
Seat 10: phishraper ( $785 )
Seat 4: hero ( $800 )
Seat 2: jim3rn ( $740 )
Seat 9: ngvath ( $800 )
Seat 6: CALCAN2 ( $890 )
Seat 7: sabre31_98 ( $800 )
Seat 1: who73296 ( $755 )
Seat 8: tariq111 ( $785 )
Trny:14126819 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Jh 3d ]
Drewhafire folds.
CALCAN2 folds.
sabre31_98 calls [15].
tariq111 calls [15].
ngvath folds.
phishraper folds.
who73296 folds.
jim3rn folds.
eddo776 calls [5].
hero checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, 9c, Jc ]
eddo776 checks.
hero bets [50].
sabre31_98 calls [50].
tariq111 raises [200].
eddo776 folds.
>You have options at Table 14105 Table!.
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
hero folds.
sabre31_98 calls [150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
sabre31_98 checks.
tariq111 bets [150].
sabre31_98 raises [300].
>You have options at Table 14517 Table!.
tariq111 calls [150].
** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
sabre31_98 is all-In [285]
tariq111 is all-In [270]
sabre31_98 shows [ Qs, Ts ] three of a kind, jacks.
tariq111 shows [ Ac, 9s ] a full house, Jacks full of nines.
sabre31_98 wins 15 chips from side pot #1 with three of a kind, jacks.
tariq111 wins 1650 chips from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of nines.

durron597
07-21-2005, 02:43 PM
Why the hell would you fold this in a 20+2??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

tigerite
07-21-2005, 02:45 PM
In my opinion yes, but I can kind of understand why you did it.

AliasMrJones
07-21-2005, 03:00 PM
First off, don't show the results. When you show the case J hitting it will color people's response. Just pot the history to the spot where you make the play you want comments on.

Now, as to the play...

I understand why you layed down, but I think you're going to be shown a draw or a single 9 here a big chunk of the time. I'm not laying this down and am usually pushing when he raises me.

11t
07-21-2005, 03:03 PM
Don't show results, they don't mean anything.

Yes I go broke here 100% of the time and if somebody does have a better kicker/flopped boat load up another tournament or pray I suck out.

Phill S
07-21-2005, 03:04 PM
20+2
3 of kind goot
Load new one if not as goot as thought

Phill

wulfheir
07-21-2005, 03:05 PM
I had same situation last night, stuck with it, and the opponent had the 4th J and I lost to his boat.

Phill S
07-21-2005, 03:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Don't show results, they don't mean anything.

Yes I go broke here 100% of the time and if somebody does have a better kicker/flopped boat load up another tournament or pray I suck out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Presumably you go broke less that 100% of the time. If its that high maybe you need to find a different game to gamble on.

I would expect to bust no more than 33% of the time, and i wouldnt be surprised if thats more like 20% if i were to track it.

Phill

pokerlaw
07-21-2005, 03:29 PM
w/ your position, throwing in that small bet looks weak (and it gives flush draws fair, though not mathmatically correct, odds to draw to beat your trips). This is a clear checkraise IMO.

oh yeah, and don't fold this.

unreal_nh
07-21-2005, 03:31 PM
thanks guys.... i guess i'll try to "go broke" next time.. lol. yeah i guess i shouldnt post the results (i can see how it can be an influence on peoples thoughts), but-- that is kinda why i felt so stupid. i just figured since i was called and then raised i thought maybe there was a chance i was beat and didnt want to take a big risk like that with such a weak kicker. true, i guess it was the beginning and what better time to go broke than the beginning as you can just start a new one. thanks again.

unreal_nh
07-21-2005, 03:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
w/ your position, throwing in that small bet looks weak (and it gives flush draws fair, though not mathmatically correct, odds to draw to beat your trips). This is a clear checkraise IMO.

oh yeah, and don't fold this.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh i thought i made a pretty good sized bet. how much would you lead out with? or would you check/call, or check/raise?

durron597
07-21-2005, 03:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]

oh i thought i made a pretty good sized bet. how much would you lead out with? or would you check/call, or check/raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flop bet is perfect. Call the raise and check any turn, then play poker.

pokerlaw
07-21-2005, 03:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

oh i thought i made a pretty good sized bet. how much would you lead out with? or would you check/call, or check/raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flop bet is perfect. Call the raise and check any turn, then play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a loose table (which includes almost every Party $22 I have yet to see), I feel a checkraise more +EV.

durron597
07-21-2005, 03:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]

On a loose table (which includes almost every Party $22 I have yet to see), I feel a checkraise more +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to encourage a hand like 98 to fold? Just bet your hand for value on the flop to try to build a pot a bit and then do what you can to get as many chips in the middle as possible.

utmt40
07-21-2005, 03:41 PM
I think you are gonna have to go broke with this hand.

durron597
07-21-2005, 03:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are gonna have to double up with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

pokerlaw
07-21-2005, 04:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

On a loose table (which includes almost every Party $22 I have yet to see), I feel a checkraise more +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to encourage a hand like 98 to fold? Just bet your hand for value on the flop to try to build a pot a bit and then do what you can to get as many chips in the middle as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

just b/c I checkraise doesn't mean people fold. flush draws and pok pairs push over the top a lot of the time, enabling me to get all my $$ in on the flop. but, I hear what you are saying and a flop bet isn't bad, just not my style in most games.

Phill S
07-21-2005, 04:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are gonna have to triple up with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

No, FYP /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh, and bet, then re-raise them if raised. Try and get your money in the middle as fast as possible, but dont check to give somone the option of giving himself a free card with flush/straight draw.

Now is not the time to slowplay young padowan.

Phill

Ixnert
07-21-2005, 04:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are gonna have to triple up with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

FYFYP

Edit: Curses, beat by seconds...the force is strong in that one.

Phill S
07-21-2005, 04:29 PM
lol, beat ya to it. And had the time to write analysis too /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Phill

trdi
07-21-2005, 04:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion yes, but I can kind of understand why you did it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

me1tdown
07-21-2005, 05:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion yes, but I can kind of understand why you did it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Took me a few minutes ( well, a lot more time than that really ) to catch up with you...
Are you looking at this and thinking the other Jack is in play with the naturally better kicker? I'm actually kind of in awe that you can multi-table, see top set on the flop, and process the weakness of your kicker at the same time. Really, sincerely, honestly, and without sarcasm of any kind -- it took me minutes to even follow your thinking. For me, I guess there are some advantages for having a pavlovian response to flopping a set -- I couldn't help but push here every time.

bmxreed36
07-21-2005, 05:32 PM
I would have check-called the flop and turn and folded on the river. Pretty standard I think.

Jay36489
07-21-2005, 05:32 PM
You just reminded me of a song.

[ QUOTE ]
wiiiillld wiiillllld horses couldnt drag me aaawwaayyy

[/ QUOTE ]

(from this hand)

unreal_nh
07-21-2005, 05:34 PM
lol...so would you lead out fold? or just check fold the river?

bmxreed36
07-21-2005, 05:36 PM
Nothing wrong with leading out folding on the river. I hope you didn't mean you'd fold the flop. God, you should feel stupid now if that's so.

Slim Pickens
07-21-2005, 05:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would have check-called the flop and turn and folded on the river. Pretty standard I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you're going to slowplay, you have to do it by open-folding the flop. Waiting until the river is just letting your opponents draw to a worse hand for free.

trdi
07-21-2005, 07:03 PM
Look, if he had some read on the opponents, than ok. But without the read you can't fold that. It's a long term -EV, don't you agree? You will fold it correctly once in [too many] cases to make it profitable.

tigerite
07-21-2005, 07:06 PM
Because he was frightened of a higher jack, 3 kicker is rather crap. But I said yes I think it was wrong, and I never fold here.

ChuckyB
07-21-2005, 07:17 PM
The thing is, his three will never come into play as the kicker. On the flop he's got JJJ93...but the turn and river will be higher than 3 (and if not...woo hoo! Jacks full of twos!).

I can't imagine folding this on the flop...at least not at the level I play at. It's playing too scared to be worried about the case jack.

ReDeYES88
07-21-2005, 07:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion yes, but I can kind of understand why you did it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Took me a few minutes ( well, a lot more time than that really ) to catch up with you...
Are you looking at this and thinking the other Jack is in play with the naturally better kicker? I'm actually kind of in awe that you can multi-table, see top set on the flop, and process the weakness of your kicker at the same time. Really, sincerely, honestly, and without sarcasm of any kind -- it took me minutes to even follow your thinking. For me, I guess there are some advantages for having a pavlovian response to flopping a set -- I couldn't help but push here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, there is no need to process the strength of your kicker when the flop comes . . ..IF in fact you looked at it the second before clicking "call" preflop.

I find it very helpful when getting to see flops cheap with junk hands from the SB or BB to tell myself what the flop needs to be for me to play further BEFORE the flop even comes. This includes analyzing the strength of potential kickers. There are a very limited number of flops I am willing to play when starting with J3o. Then, when the flop comes, I can pause for a second and remind myself of my preflop standards (and not go chasing a mediocre top pair flop or something similar that looks kinda sexy).

I'm curious about your intentions with your flop lead of t50. Were you trying to get them to fold? Were you trying to build a pot? I gotta tell ya, if you were willing to muck to a reraise to t200 after flopping trips, then just save your t50 chips next time and open check.

No, you aren't ahead here 100% of the time, especially after a few limpers preflop . . .BUT . . you are ahead a majority of the time.

nate_king1
07-21-2005, 07:48 PM
The way I'd look at it is that he doesn't have trips on the flop, because why would he bet so much? That is an easy call.