$215s - Controversial AQ Hand

[Unarmed]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1045)
UTG+2 (t1210)
MP1 (t1185)
MP2 (t865)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t1015)
Button (t940)
SB (t1045)
BB (t920)
UTG (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, Button calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t105) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t105) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t90</font>, BB folds, Hero calls t90, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds.

River: (t285) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t150</font>, Hero calls t150.

Final Pot: t585

[citanul]

what's controversial about that?

[durron597]

I don't hate it, I just wonder whether it is the line with the highest EV (it may very well be).

This reminds me of the KQ hand I posted a few days ago, I wonder if I would have had better results playing it this way.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

Slowplaying TPTK w/ straight and flush draws out there and 7 players in the hand.

No?

LDT

[citanul]

looks like (depending on where i thought he was going with the hand) he found a path that lost the min, won the max, and only has a small possibility to get sucked out on. he also avoided having to deal with any hard decisions.

citanul

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Slowplaying TPTK w/ straight and flush draws out there and 7 players in the hand.

No?

LDT

[/ QUOTE ]

this is not really slow-playing so much as catching bluffs/keeping the pot small. if it was a slow-play he'd raise the river (which would be dumb in this case).

[Lady Dont Tekno]

I guess I can deal with this line because he couldn't very well raise PF. Still, hate playing AQ this weak/tight.

LDT

[imported_torgeauxSA]

Don't like it, too passive, too many players. Bet medium bet on the flop, you do not have a hand good enough to allow 6 other players to see a free card. What would you do when a K hits? or the board pairs? or another spade hits? With that many players, the answer is simple, you'd fold. Push some out, build the pot, and bet out the turn and flop.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't like it, too passive, too many players. Bet medium bet on the flop, you do not have a hand good enough to allow 6 other players to see a free card. What would you do when a K hits? or the board pairs? or another spade hits? With that many players, the answer is simple, you'd fold. Push some out, build the pot, and bet out the turn and flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

yuck.

citanul

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I can deal with this line because he couldn't very well raise PF. Still, hate playing AQ this weak/tight.

LDT

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this would be a terrible line at the 33's, btw. i think the problem is that here no one will call your pfr with KQ/QJ and then stack off.

[DyessMan89]

I know you want to keep the pot small, but I still think this is way too weak/tight. I dont like playing not to lose.

[imported_torgeauxSA]

How do you get this? Only by looking at this from the river back can you make such a statement. Taken at each betting point, this wasn't optimal play by any stretch. PF, fine, no argument. Checking that flop? No. Turn? Given the play to that point, sure, I guess.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

[ QUOTE ]
he also avoided having to deal with any hard decisions.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think by betting the flop he'll have both a better idea of where he's at and a better chance to win the pot

LDT

[jwsly1]

I realize that you were playing this hand trying to reduce the amount of risk you were involved in. With the texture of the flop, both a flush draw and a straight draw possible, I would have made a value bet after the flop to reduce the number of players in the field (something between $50-$100).
Because you never made a bet, I find it more difficult to really know what the SB is betting on. For all I know he has 6 8 and the free card just made his straight.

But ... to each their own. GL

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
For all I know he has 6 8 and the free card just made his straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why hero only calls the river instead of raises.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For all I know he has 6 8 and the free card just made his straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why hero only calls the river instead of raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

But betting the flop still makes sure it is incorrect for the SB to draw.

LDT

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I can deal with this line because he couldn't very well raise PF. Still, hate playing AQ this weak/tight.

LDT

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this would be a terrible line at the 33's, btw. i think the problem is that here no one will call your pfr with KQ/QJ and then stack off.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this. the problem with this line at the lower buyins is that you arent giving someone the opportunity to pay you off with their top pair good kicker, or even middle pair.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

But betting the flop still makes sure it is incorrect for the SB to draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but someone might decide to get frisky with a hand like 76s when the flop checks around that would just fold when Hero bets the flop. Plus this keeps the pot small.

[kuro]

The question I have is about open limping with AQo with stacks this deep from utg+1. You're going to have to play it out of position and likely multiway. If someone raises preflop you have to fold. If you're not willing to raise it to 45 preflop to try to limit the callers are you better off just folding it from utg+1?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
lost the min

[/ QUOTE ]

probably

[ QUOTE ]
won the max

[/ QUOTE ]

probably not

[ QUOTE ]
and only has a small possibility to get sucked out on

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?


This is not to say I dislike this line, because it really is an interesting one to take. I think the pf limp is pretty standard (some may argue otherwise, but meh). The flop is a good line I think, but I do not think you got the best result after your check. I would be much happier if someone in LP bet and it got folded back to me. This is nice because if some check-raising happens in EP then you haven't invested anything. Once it got back to me I would not check raise because he can call with so many hands, you've invested alot of your stack, and many turns are ugly. On many turns (even potentially ugly ones) I would lead for 2/3 or full pot. The reason you can do this on ugly turns is because you don't know what's ugly for you, so you can find out if he raises. If he calls, I check fold, or check call the river, depending on cards, reads and action. Given that it gets checked through on the flop, I don't think you can raise the turn because the SB is betting. You could easily have him beat, but the opposite is true, so I think raising folds worse hands and bloats the pot for better ones. Unfortunately you're letting people behind you draw, but it's for a pretty mediocre / bad price. You can't raise the river obviously, so your call is very good.

[poindexter]

here are 2 level 1 early position AQo hands I played just before reading your post.

#Game No : 2399645307
***** Hand History for Game 2399645307 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:14125693 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, July 21, 13:28:53 EDT 2005
Table Table 12279 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: villian ( $2400 )
Seat 3: JerkStore_ ( $910 )
Seat 4: ATXGeyer ( $955 )
Seat 5: RedLadyBird ( $955 )
Seat 6: ISIAH33 ( $975 )
Seat 7: hermannaftel ( $1455 )
Seat 8: Diyani ( $1000 )
Seat 9: yiitsanghsu ( $350 )
Seat 10: fisheyplayer ( $1000 )
Trny:14125693 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fisheyplayer [ Qh As ]
yiitsanghsu folds.
fisheyplayer raises [45].
villian calls [45].
JerkStore_ folds.
ATXGeyer folds.
RedLadyBird folds.
ISIAH33 folds.
hermannaftel calls [35].
Diyani calls [30].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, 3s, Qd ]
hermannaftel checks.
Diyani checks.
fisheyplayer bets [90].
villian calls [90].
hermannaftel folds.
Diyani folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
fisheyplayer bets [125].
villian calls [125].
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
fisheyplayer bets [125].
villian calls [125].
fisheyplayer shows [ Qh, As ] two pairs, aces and queens.
villian doesn't show [ Tc, 9h ] two pairs, tens and threes.
fisheyplayer wins 860 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and queens.
nh
Game #2399650996 starts.


#Game No : 2399271955
***** Hand History for Game 2399271955 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:14123676 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, July 21, 11:16:43 EDT 2005
Table Table 10874 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: CfaJay ( $985 )
Seat 2: smiley42270 ( $955 )
Seat 3: Kismet0 ( $1000 )
Seat 4: Scooby2521 ( $935 )
Seat 5: ballzeenuts ( $990 )
Seat 6: trocdau ( $1235 )
Seat 7: blaettler ( $975 )
Seat 8: Bluff4Rent ( $985 )
Seat 9: trustful88 ( $940 )
Seat 10: fisheyplayer ( $1000 )
Trny:14123676 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fisheyplayer [ As Qh ]
fisheyplayer raises [50].
CfaJay folds.
smiley42270 folds.
Kismet0 folds.
Scooby2521 calls [50].
ballzeenuts folds.
trocdau folds.
blaettler folds.
Bluff4Rent folds.
trustful88 calls [35].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, Ts, 9d ]
trustful88 checks.
fisheyplayer checks.
Scooby2521 bets [60].
trustful88 folds.
fisheyplayer calls [60].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
fisheyplayer checks.
Scooby2521 bets [150].
fisheyplayer folds.
Scooby2521 does not show cards.
Scooby2521 wins 430 chips
Game #2399274981 starts.

Hope this Helps. This will be my last post in this forum. Good luck to you.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
This will be my last post in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?
That sort of sucks. I always wished you would post more...
Good luck to you too! You need it way less than I do though. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

At first I was going to write that I thought this line was rediculous, but now I'm not so sure. What was your intention on the flop is someone behind you bet and it folded to you, checkraise? After spending a lot of time looking at it I like the way that you played it.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
At first I was going to write that I thought this line was rediculous, but now I'm not so sure. What was your intention on the flop is someone behind you bet and it folded to you, checkraise? After spending a lot of time looking at it I like the way that you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If LP bets and it folds around to me I'll raise.
If LP bets and it's called by the blinds I'll raise. (but not happily)
If there's a bet and a raise before me I fold.
I don't even mind C/Ring a LP bet all-in if I think he's the WSOP, I can make big calls type.

Frankly though, I don't know how wise this is. It may be that I should just call a single bet (especially if its from the guy to my immediate left) and play the hand for value. Bah...

I hate this hand BTW, TPTK 7 way with a FD on the board in an unraised pot is a terrible spot.

I dislike betting the flop because if raised I have no idea where I stand, making the hand pretty hard to play. Also, I like to have some information on my opponents holdings before betting, and currently I have none. However, I can definitely think of some alternate lines that involve betting the flop.

[Bigwig]

Well, I make this play a lot, although not from this position at a 10 handed table. If it's average to above average aggressive, I'll muck AQo in this spot.

I probably bet the flop here, because I only see one broadway card, and there are some draws. But check/calling isn't bad, and is often the best line. Especially once you get to the turn with that many players still in the pot.

Nh.

[johnnybeef]

I think you really need to define your hand here, i like a flop bet.

[curtains]

Im embarrassed to post how I'd play the hand. Makes me feel like I've been getting lucky over my last 3000 sit and gos.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

Im embarrassed to post how I'd play the hand. Makes me feel like I've been getting lucky over my last 3000 sit and gos.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, tell us!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[curtains]

Ok but please note that Im embarrassed everytime I do this when I flop a good top pair type of hand into a big field in a sit and go.

I would check the flop, and I would fold to the 90 chip bet on the turn.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

While I think this is very weak --

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

LDT

[Unarmed]

If Villain is real solid I don't mind that line at all. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I would check the flop, and I would fold to the 90 chip bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry this has to be wrong.

He's in the SMALL BLIND. No one has shown any strength on the flop. He could have SO many hands you beat EVEN IF he's real solid.

[curtains]

I don't even feel like explaining this hand, but that's almost surely what I'd do.

If the turn bet came from someone in a different position (ie without 4 more players to act after me, I'd call more often).

Also please note that if the SB is solid (aka the SB is me), there is zero and I mean ZERO chance your AQ is any good on the turn. Of course not everyone is that solid, but still he's betting into 6 opponents from the SB and could basically have any type of 2 pair or straight or whatever.

I feel like betting the flop makes the hand impossible to play also...everything about it is ugly in a sit and go format.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

Also please note that if the SB is solid (aka the SB is me), there is zero and I mean ZERO chance your AQ is any good on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop biting my posts /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Also please note that if the SB is solid (aka the SB is me), there is zero and I mean ZERO chance your AQ is any good on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you had a hand like Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif and you missed a flop c/r?

Edit: or better yet Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif so you have a gutshot to go with your top pair.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would check the flop, and I would fold to the 90 chip bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry this has to be wrong.

He's in the SMALL BLIND. No one has shown any strength on the flop. He could have SO many hands you beat EVEN IF he's real solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but I need a big hand to bet into 6 PartyPoker players on a turn of Q975 with 2 spades. Im not betting here with Q4o.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok but please note that Im embarrassed everytime I do this when I flop a good top pair type of hand into a big field in a sit and go.

I would check the flop, and I would fold to the 90 chip bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you hunt through your hh's and find an example of this? i can't believe you would do this.

but i was also floored when the cogniscenti (sp?) liked sklansky's line of check-folding the flop with AA in a 7-way unraised pot and non-scary board. maybe i'm not putting enough weight on the idea that with 6 villains, somebody's got 2 pair.

[curtains]

It's not a common occurance but I've definitely done things similar to this. However it's pretty rare that it comes up.

I posted a similar hand about a week ago where I had AQo on the button, but okay that was a bit different in many respects, especially since I didn't fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
AA in a 7-way unraised pot

[/ QUOTE ]

How did this manage to occur?

[Jay36489]

Well, I only play 55s but... In this spot I will raise AQ and AJ PF, and bet this flop on lvl 1, but I am more careful at level 2. Reason being I can afford to make this PF raise, flop bet and fold if its obvious I'm beat (which would take a LOT of action to make me think that), and it doesnt hurt my stack too much. In level 2 this can cost you quite a bit more to mess up playing a hand like this OOP. This really applies more to having AQ and flopping an A more then flopping the Q. Am I off on this? I just think that even though the blinds are low in lvl 1 &amp; 2 you really do have more room for error.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

If you're going to play it that weak I'd just fold AQo UTG+1 routinely (which is a fine option IMO).

LDT

[Unarmed]

Yeah but SB was Harman in that hand right?
With AA in an unraised pot and a rock solid SB leading into 6 players, your reverse implied odds are f*cking terrible.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play it that weak I'd just fold AQo UTG+1 routinely (which is a fine option IMO).

LDT

[/ QUOTE ]

Im playing it this weak because there are 7 opponents and things just didn't turn out the way I wanted. Let me tell you that when I limp UTG with AQo (Which I do, although I sometimes fold in the 15-30 level when its 10 handed) this isn't a normal occurance.

It's not going to kill me that I put 15 chips into the pot and some of the time that I flop top pair I don't get heavily invested. Basically I almost never lose a lot of chips when I'm beaten (as you can tell by my "weak tight" play), but occasionally win a nice pot when I have the best hand or win a huge pot when I flop 2 pair or better.

If I did play the hand any differently it would be to bet out for like 95-100 on the flop.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but SB was Harman in that hand right?
With AA in an unraised pot and a rock solid SB leading into 6 players, your reverse implied odds are f*cking terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that was the hand. does "solid" in this case mean "good" or "doesn't bluff"? cause i think they get mixed up sometimes.

if you search for posts by me with sklansky in the subject, you'll find it.

[Unarmed]

Solid as in wouldn't bet middle pair or TPWK into the field so she has a big draw or a huge hand and it may cost you your whole satck to find out which one it is.

[adanthar]

I routinely limp AQ PF there (and call a small raise), I think that part is OK.

Flop: You check. It's checked behind you. The turn is a spade, K, 9, 8, 7, or 6 (with J or T being almost as bad); you hate your hand in a 7 way pot, can't really bet it and probably fold at some point. Because I would like to avoid this outcome with what is likely the best hand at the moment, I'm betting.

Say you check and it's checked through. Turn: SB has a real hand. He does not, however, always have TPTK beat (not even most of the time) because KQ bets here, as does QJ, QT and all those other Q's. A solid SB will not have Q4o but he sure will often have a Q with 2 spades or just TPGK.

On the other hand, a raise sucks, and if it's raised behind you you have an easy fold. So you call the turn, and then call the river because your hand is good 1 time out of 3. From here, it's standard. The flop is the bad part, because you'd really like some idea of what to do when one of around 30 other cards hits.

PS: Folding the turn is not *that* bad and there are people against whom it's probably a good idea, I just don't ever get into that situation because I bet the flop.

[adanthar]

BTW that AA hand was ridiculous PF unless apparently you want to outthink yourself a lot, but I perfectly knew where he was coming from on the flop and thought the fold was good (once again, I'd raise PF because the logical conclusion to that perfect waste of 50 chips was to not put yourself in a position where you are against Jennifer Harman betting into 6 people in the first place.)

[Unarmed]

How does betting make a sh*tty turn card any more comfortable, especially if you're OOP? I think I'm f*cked if a spade comes on the turn whether I bet the flop or not.

Also, how do you react to a flop raise from either the blinds/UTG, or EP/LP?

[adanthar]

You bet, get one caller, the turn is a random spade: you have a situation that comes up a billion times a day. It's not a great spot but it's not a horrible one.

You bet, get three callers, the turn is a random spade: you quickly check/fold, problem solved.

You check, the turn is a random spade, it's checked to some LP guy who bets half the pot: you...are gonna be folding the best hand an awful lot *or* have to call two streets and hope the guy that calls behind you just has the naked ace, which he very well could.

edit: the blinds are scarier than an LP raise and it greatly depends on what I think of them. Also, it's gonna be a draw a lot, but most draws are favorites on this flop. Basically, I'll either be calling small CR's and pushing lots of turns, or folding lots of flops. Depends.

[Unarmed]

Good points.
I guess I'm just not all that upset if the flop gets checked around and I have to bail to a turn scare card. It wasn't a great spot to begin with.
This may be too passive but in a structure where I can't rebuy I don't think so.
Anyway... good thread guys Villain had T7o and MHIG.

[nate_king1]

Why don't you bet pre flop, bet the flop, bet the turn and take it down.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok but please note that Im embarrassed everytime I do this when I flop a good top pair type of hand into a big field in a sit and go.

I would check the flop, and I would fold to the 90 chip bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not quite this tight postflop, but I'm close.

Given that, would you normally follow my line with AQo in the first two seats at a 10 handed table and fold preflop?

[kuro]

The trouble with betting or even check calling is that isn't it pretty obvious what your holding because of how few hands you open limp from UTG+1. So if you bet or check-call aren't you just setting yourself up to have the pot taken away from you by someone in late position or the blinds especially if they can narrow your holdings because they have the ace of spades or a 9?

I think maybe Curtains line of check/folding here is right. You've only got 15 chips invested in the hand.

[curtains]

I don't really know if its right. Don't forget Im always playing 8 games and I play extremely well late in the tournament, so sometimes I avoid difficult situations in giant fields early in sit and go's, and I don't have a huge amount of regrets about it as my results have been better than I could have imagined (although I'm sure I'm getting very lucky so far).

Interesting post. I read it during my lunch break and have been thinking about it since then. Ultimately, I think the thing I don't like about the play is the preflop call in combination with the post flop check/call.

It seems to me, that if you're gonna call with this preflop, you gotta be willing to put some pressure on the rest of the table if the flop hits you this hard. I mean, what were you hoping for when you called preflop? Hoping for two pair or better on the flop?? If so, then you're basically looking at this a more of a longshot-type drawing hand, which you shouldn't be playing preflop UTG+1 with all those players behind you who may raise you and make it too expensive for you to even see a flop.

Thus, if that's your mindset, I think you should fold preflop.

As for raising preflop, I read that some posters said they would've done that. At first I didn't like it, but upon thinking about it some more, it could work in the right situation. If you think you're up against a fairly passive table, it might be worth it to raise it up to 45 and knock out a few of those limpers. Of course, if you get re-raised a big amount you should probably lay it down.

But anyway, I don't think this was a horrible play. Just not what I would do. I probably would've called (or maybe raised) preflop, then bet out on the flop. You probably made more money doing it your way though....

[lacky]

I play so much different than you I sometimes wonder if were from the same planet.

If you dont think TPTK is worth a bet and ahead most of the time, what do you like?

I'm stunned.

Steve

[Newt_Buggs]

If the second best hand that you're fishing for is behind you (QT+) then he will almost always bet it for you if you check. On the other hand Andathar brings up a good point where half the deck ruins your hand. I think that this can also be incentive for checking though. I don't know about the $215s, but a large % of the time I can see a flop bet getting called by someone behind you, then having to play OOP after something like a J/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif comes down

[Pitcher]

Hi Guys,

I don't post very often but this one is tough to avoid. I am a very successful 215 player....very successful. Like everyone, I occassionally make a bad play or am not sure what the optimal play is....but I think this line is very poor. I believe there are only two good things to be done here.

1. Fold preflop

2. Bet out pre-flop to avoid 6 callers to begin with. A raise to T45 or T60 is more than warranted. AQo is a top 5% hand...and should be raised, especially early. At the mid-part of the tournament (depends on how many are left) it actually becomes less playable because most of the donks are out. Even in the 215's there are enough donks (1 or 2) that will invest a significant amount on this flop with TPGK and NO FLUSH DRAW. I see it all the time. This flop is perfect for that situation. If you got callers that did not re-raise, you can bet they are relatively weak, so when the Q flops, you are likely golden. Take your small pot and be happy. Relatively low risk with a big potential upside.

Please do not take offense, but this forum has become the home of weak tight recommendations. Not everything is weak tight and ICM. There is a little more room than that....

Pitcher

[curtains]

Nothing wrong with being weak/tight sometimes in these. Also nothing wrong with basing a large portion of your game on ICM analysis (I do so and I am also "SUCCESSFUL, VERY SUCCESSFUL" at the $215s).

I don't believe folding preflop is clearly better than limping for 1/60th of your stack with a top 5% hand. If you want to fold fine, but Im not ready to say limping is a clear mistake (especially since I limp).

Also there are two spades on the flop, thus it's not a NO FLUSH DRAW flop.

Anyway of course there is nothing wrong with raising too. There are a lot of different styles that can be used to win, and to win a lot of money. One play that you may make routinely may look terrible to someone else, and it may turn out both players win at a huge clip. It's a matter of finding the style that best suits you and following it.

Of course some plays are inexcusable, like being unable to solve the simple math problems at the end of sit and gos. However your choice of how to play AQo preflop here allows for a great deal of flexibility.

[Pitcher]

Hi Curtains,

My post was not directed at anyone specifically. I use ICM, call much more than many successful players at the end of games, and aggressively play good hands early (there are more fish early, so playing good hands nets the occassional double up from said donks). I also don't play anything lower than AQ or higher or 99 or higher (and that depends ....) in the early rounds. What I am saying is that by limping pre-flop you occasionally get into situations where even with a good flop you can't continue. When it flops 2 spades and there are six left behind you, you are at a big disadvantage. Now you have a tough decision that could have easily been avoided by either raising or folding pre-flop.

As for the following, I agree sort of...

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with being weak/tight sometimes

[/ QUOTE ]

This forum is supposed to be about improving your play. Many players will look at this and conclude that "the best players play weak tight" Nothing could be further from the truth. Curtains, I am pretty sure I know one of your accounts and play SNG's against you everyday...and you are clearly not "weak tight" in general. You have the skill to play "weak tight" for greater strategic and tactical gain because you can creatively change gears. Most players don't have that ability. My issue is that the general tone on this forum is weak tight which leads to worse, less creative play. I must have read some variant of this quote a hundred times in the last month...."you just can't call / raise / limp without blah blah blah" These statements are frequently put forth by some player that you and I would routinely crush like they are some sort of "fact" I have a general comment about these kinds of quotes: Yes you can....and you frequently should play differently than what is being suggested. It is the tone I am objecting to, nothing else.

Pitcher

[curtains]

Thanks for your response, sorry I was a bit pissy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
What I am saying is that by limping pre-flop you occasionally get into situations where even with a good flop you can't continue. When it flops 2 spades and there are six left behind you, you are at a big disadvantage. Now you have a tough decision that could have easily been avoided by either raising or folding pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens sometimes. I don't think it's the end of the world when it does. I don't mind having a tough decision every now and then, or sitting there and playing very obviously weak/tight for a hand.

I am of course not what I'd consider weak/tight in general, but I am during individual hands sometimes. There is some extra pressure on people to not be weak/tight, and this can also hurt them when they get into extremely marginal decisions and they feel like they are playing bad poker if they don't do something aggressive. I beleive I used to have this problem earlier in my career where I was scared to not be "aggressive" as that's how all the top players supposedly play, and I don't want others to have this problem too in foolish situations.

I also agree that you can probably get away with a lot of things in sit and go's early on. I don't limp with KQo UTG (or even dream of doing so for that matter), but I suspect that it may be possible to do so for profit, but probably for a minority of players. But when someone says something is an easy fold, when it's costing you 15 of 1000 chips, then that's a tough statement to back up if your hand is not something totally ridiculous.

[microbet]

I'm sorry I haven't been paying attention to this thread.

I would either limp or raise (3bbs or a little less) preflop. Maybe people think a raise here is crazy.

I would bet the flop.

Having limped preflop and facing as many players as you did, I would still bet on the flop, but I think being careful here is appropriate.

Interesting how in this hand having so many players involved kept the pot small.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
what's controversial about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've skimmed the thread and this comes closest to my inital thought and my thoughts after reading the comments.

7 players, unraised pot, one pair, OOP. This is not a hand to build a big pot with.

pf: call, raise, both choices are good and neither should be used exclusively.

flop: lead, check, there is a choice here but I check a lot more than I lead. There are just too many people to act on a coordinated board. I really don't like the idea of firing a bet here because it starts building a pot where, even if I am ahead, I can have several people call who have position on me. Moreove, there are very few blanks that can come on the turn, so if I get a couple of callers, I'm in "oh, crap" mode on the turn. I will still lead here occasionally, but I am really unhappy if I get raised since it could be a semi bluff or it could be a hand that beats me. This is really a hand to tread lightly with. Also, if someone bets behind you, you can plan according to who bet, and what the people in between did.

turn: that is a relative blank. Do you raise or do you call here? I like calling since someone may be laying in the weeds, and I really HATE the idea of committing a lot of chips to a pot that is 7-way when I have one measily pair. The down side to calling is almost every draw is getting odds to call. The upside is that t90 should clear out the rabble that may be in their with a K or middle pair or a gutshot, and if someone has a big hand they will likely speak up.

river: The easiest street by far. Villain fires a bet that is either a blocking bet or a bet from a monster. Unless villain is a complete fool who will stack off with a hand like KQ here, no good can come from raising and you are ahead of way too many hands that make this bet to even consider folding.

nh

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

turn: that is a relative blank. Do you raise or do you call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the argument that is currenty being waged in this thread is actually between calling and folding. curtains says that if he is the SB here he can beat AQ, thus a fold is good. Most others including myself prefer call however because a hand we beat could easily be betting here because no one showed interest on the flop.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

turn: that is a relative blank. Do you raise or do you call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the argument that is currenty being waged in this thread is actually between calling and folding. curtains says that if he is the SB here he can beat AQ, thus a fold is good. Most others including myself prefer call however because a hand we beat could easily be betting here because no one showed interest on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to edit my post now that I have read some more of the thread to say that curtains is wise.

Agaist a good sb, I think mucking is correct, but in my 300ish 50's, I have not seen a lot of people I would muck there with. (Maybe 10-15% of my opponents).

In the 200's the number may be more like 60-70% or more, though if that is the case I don't know that I will play them. (I think if the level of play is that good I am not going to be able to 8 table, and my time would be better spent elsewhere, say nl ring games. I mean, let's face it, we can't all be raptor /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[Unarmed]

I need a bulletproof read to fold that to the SB's turn bet. Your're just not behind enough of the time here. However, the fact that the bet came from the blinds definitely makes raising incorrect.

[Jason Strasser]

I didnt read the replies, just the OP.

Here's the key for me, the hero is obviously willing to check/call a lot in this hand. I'd be willing to bet that if a villain bet out the flop/turn/river hero would be willing to call him down. So to those who say 'this line makes decisions easier', I strongly disagree. This pot could get big and because you've failed to define your hand much you will often get in some sticky spots.

In a limped pot like this, where Im probably willing to check call a lot, I'm bettin this flop 100%. I'd rather give myself some idea of where people stand in this hand, then just check and call. The dynamic of a limped pot is tricky... Its often not good to be in a spot where you are going to check/call lots of money in a limped pot without showing any aggression. Hands like KQ QJ may value bet strongly, along with 2 pairs and draws and all the rest. Id probably lead the flop and if I get raised I have a decision. If I get called in one or more spots I'm going to check and call or fold. Vague, I know. But how comfortable is it to see the flop get checked around then check call a bunch of your stack away? You're really just guessing that you're ahead.

-Jason

[skierdude1000]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't like it, too passive, too many players. Bet medium bet on the flop, you do not have a hand good enough to allow 6 other players to see a free card. What would you do when a K hits? or the board pairs? or another spade hits? With that many players, the answer is simple, you'd fold. Push some out, build the pot, and bet out the turn and flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

welll said

[skierdude1000]

i find so many things wrong with this hand: raise preflop, bet the flop, I mean by not doing these things, it makes you feel scared with your TPTK against 7 people as you said.

It's not hard to play good cards like these.