HU (1 on 1 SnG) Profitable?

[Nato76]

Do you think playing these heads up SnGs are worth it? I never played any until yesterday and I won 10-12 yesterday after winning 8 in a row. I don't know if I was on a big luck streak or maybe these games are worth giving a try. Regarless I increased my BR by 25%. Profitable or not in the long run?

[citanul]

what kind of question is this?

if you play better than your opponents by enough to beat the rake, then yes.

if not, no.

citanul

[Nicholasp27]

what's the rake?

55% winning is needed to break even with 10% rake...if it's 5%, u only need to win 52.5% of the time to break even

if u have a solid hu game, it seems that u should be able to outplay your opps by >2.5%, so it should be profitable

how much u can make per hour and how much variance it has compared to sngs, i dunno

[Irieguy]

I just started playing these things regularly a few weeks ago, trying to figure out whether it's worth it or not. I've played everything from the $50's to the $1000's on Stars.

The main problem is that you can really only play one at a time. I thought I was retarded or something for not being able to multi-table them... but then I talked to Gigabet about it and he says he can only play one at a time, too. So, if i'm as retarded as Gigabet I can live with that.

Preliminarily, I think a 60% win rate is possible as high as the $200 level. You can play 2-4 per hour, one at a time. So, I think it's possible to earn $100/hr or so.

BUT, I have some opinions about HU play that probably aren't popular, ie, that you have to know how to play other games (besides holdem) and have to have a LOT of experience with shorthanded play to be any good.

So, if you only just recently started playing shorthanded and you only play holdem... you're on a heater and your win rate will be in the 50's at best until you develop some game. HU play requires more skill and experience than any other form of poker because you see so many flops.

There's not much data reported on these things, so please let us know once you've played a few hundred. I would be interested.

Irieguy

[Nato76]

Irieguy thank you for responding. I am going to give it a try. I played some just because I wanted a little change. Maybe I just got on a super lucky streak but I increased my BR by +$875 in less than 3 hours of play. I don't expect to make that everytime but if I can make 1/3 of that a day then it will be worth it for me. I was mostly playing the $50 and $100 HU.

[citanul]

why do you think that you need to be good at other games to play hu holdem?

citanul

[Irieguy]

HU Hold'em is significantly different from 6+ handed holdem... and I mean from a game theory standpoint, not just in the obvious ways.

So, you make more decisions without knowing anything at all. In a full game, you get a lot of information preflop based on bet sizes and position. But HU, a preflop raise from the SB-Button doesn't mean anything. I think that you need to understand game theory concepts from draw and low-draw... when you don't see any of your opponents' cards, to be really good at these types of decisions.

Then, after the flop, you will frequently be in a position where you have to call with absolutely nothing. A part of this will be because of your chances to bluff later... but some of it has to do with the value of drawing to your nothing. This is similar in many ways to playing 4th and 5th street in stud when you rate to have an underpair to the bettor.

So, if I know that somebody only plays holdem... I'll play them HU for any stakes. I don't mean that as some goofy Negreanuesque challenge- it's just meant to clarify how confident I am that you can't be all that good HU without experience thinking along these other lines.

Irieguy

[citanul]

with all due respect, i think that this reasoning is totally malarky.

while many of these concepts to which you refer are more glaringly obvious in other games, a player who plays and actually studies heads up holdem would be quite well equipped.

i'd be more inclined to accept a rational like "i don't think that a player who has specialized in shorthanded and ring holdem would be able to play very well the first time they sat down to a heads up game." however, clearly that same player could start playing heads up and/or reading about heads up and become quite expert in it without playing a game like tripledraw and become an expert heads up player.

it is akin to the recent people saying that the best way to learn to play post flop, and thus master party poker sngs is to play on stars since they have deeper stacks and thus more opportunities for postflop play. just because the interesting cases for post flop play occur more rarely in the party games does not mean that you couldn't practice them there. they do afterall still occur there.

so basically what i'm saying is that while learning other games is one path to learning tp play excellent heads up holdem, i believe that a good grasp of the theory and the ability to practice it is all that is really necessary. a person only really needs to know what they are supposed to do and do it, it doesn't matter where they learned it. for instance, if they learned it by sitting in front of poki for 40 hours a week for 3 months, they'd probably become pretty facile if intelligent.

similarly, a very good shorthanded player with a good background in theory will most likely be able to play very well heads up, since they will be both familiar with the situations that arise with post flop heads up play and be able to understand the importance of position, the flipflopped button, etc.

citanul

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
HU Hold'em is significantly different from 6+ handed holdem... and I mean from a game theory standpoint, not just in the obvious ways.

So, you make more decisions without knowing anything at all. In a full game, you get a lot of information preflop based on bet sizes and position. But HU, a preflop raise from the SB-Button doesn't mean anything. I think that you need to understand game theory concepts from draw and low-draw... when you don't see any of your opponents' cards, to be really good at these types of decisions.

Then, after the flop, you will frequently be in a position where you have to call with absolutely nothing. A part of this will be because of your chances to bluff later... but some of it has to do with the value of drawing to your nothing. This is similar in many ways to playing 4th and 5th street in stud when you rate to have an underpair to the bettor.

So, if I know that somebody only plays holdem... I'll play them HU for any stakes. I don't mean that as some goofy Negreanuesque challenge- it's just meant to clarify how confident I am that you can't be all that good HU without experience thinking along these other lines.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

So along those lines, I propose that we change the format of the STTF-HU challenge to that of mixed games.

[Unarmed]

F*ck that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I've never even played limit holdem, let alone any other type of poker.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
F*ck that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I've never even played limit holdem, let alone any other type of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

edit: seriously though, how the hell have you never played limit holdem??? I mean I could understand not playing triple draw, stud 8/ob, or even stud, but limit holdem???? damnm, my edge at that format would be bigger than i originally thought.

[Irieguy]

I don't think my reasoning is malarky... but my explanation may have been malarkish.

Let's say there is a thing... and this thing is called "expert HU ability." I've seen people attain this thing, and they've all done it in similar ways.

You are saying that it should be possible to attain this thing in a different way. There's no reason for me to say that you are wrong.

What I can say is that I've never seen somebody who plays only holdem have a lick of HU ability. As soon as I see it, I'll change my mind... or at least acknowledge the exception.

Also, the reason why Danny Negreanu is willing to play anybody HU in any game for up to $500,000 is because he knows it's true, too. He's great at every poker game and knows that there are only a handful of players in the world who play every game as well or better than he does (Greenstein, Brunson, Ivey, Forrest, Reese, Giang). He figures only a few of that handful will bother taking him up on his challenge, and he can spend the rest of the year playing HU against single-game specialists who mistakenly feel that because they are a better limit holdem player (or whatever) than Negreanu, they will have a chance against him heads up.

My opinion is that when you are playing HU in a specific game, it is more important that you are a good poker player than a good "specific game" player. In fact, I could invent a poker game and spend a year playing it and thinking about it... and I'd still rate to lose a heads-up match against Phil Ivey 5 minutes after teaching him the game.


Irieguy

[Phill S]

If you designed any game specifically for heads up, have betting rounds, you can call it poker and play it non stop for a year and piss on anyone from great distances because of it.

You just cant adapt a game that isnt specifically heads up orientated and have the same edge.

I have no idea what the game would be like, but you could build safeguards into it so that the edge of the experienced player outweighs a new player, complex wild card rules to think of one of the top of my head.

Phill

[microbet]

Taking things literally I agree with citanul. I don't think there is any reason why you can't just play HE HU and become the best HE HU player in the world.

However, I think pretty much every time that I have studied or seriously played another game I have improved my NLHE (at least in the long run). Sometimes it is because you apply a principle that is more clear in another game and sometimes it is because you more clearly see something by contrast.

[doggin]

Please, just one example!?!
How can stud or omaha make me a better HE player?
I'm not disputing you, but like what?
Thx

[valenzuela]

I agree with Irie. Irie isnt saying :
only HE player= cant master HEHU
Irie is saying:
complete player > only HE player.

Why dont you guys play..ehhh...No Limit Santiago poker.
I play it with my friens time to time.( I prefer 20x the antes as stacks)
Everyone puts up antes, and everyone shows their card to their oponents, the catch is that they cant see their cards.
A round of betting occurs highest card wins.

Before u make fun I think it requires some skill
For instance.
7...12( stack) check
Q...23 check
X(you)...18
2 ...27

so what do u do here...winner takes all payout.

[Nicholasp27]

so u see everyone's card but your own...

so u can obviously use probability to see what odds are that your card is higher than the highest card that you see...however if u are in late position, u can use the betting to help u out...if people are betting, then that means u dont have a large card...or they could be bluffing u as well...or say u see 5678 so 24 cards that are better out of 48, so 50% chance u have 9+...well ur opp may see 569 and think he has a high chance of having 10+, so he may have bet, but that could scare u from ur card, etc

so there would be some strategy in that game; interesting to think about

[valenzuela]

I forgot the most important thing about my post.
If u put Irieguy, me, Phil Ivey and Citanul on a table, chances are Phil Ivey will own the table even though I MADE UP THE GAME!!!! I also see irieguy constantly outplaying me & citanul( im supposing citanul has never played other games REGULARLY ) Citanul vs Me..I believe I can be tough if Im to his left.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Irie. Irie isnt saying :
only HE player= cant master HEHU
Irie is saying:
complete player > only HE player.

Why dont you guys play..ehhh...No Limit Santiago poker.
I play it with my friens time to time.( I prefer 20x the antes as stacks)
Everyone puts up antes, and everyone shows their card to their oponents, the catch is that they cant see their cards.
A round of betting occurs highest card wins.

Before u make fun I think it requires some skill
For instance.
7...12( stack) check
Q...23 check
X(you)...18
2 ...27

so what do u do here...winner takes all payout.



[/ QUOTE ]

I play this under the name 1 card stud. Usually heads up only and only as a break from other games.

Quite difficult heads up, ive bluffed people off aces loads of times as the psychological edge is quite massive if you know your opponants. But its like any other game, it helps in certain ways my NL holdem game, but not as much as playing NL holdem would.

Phill

[Nicholasp27]

but if u studied your game for a year, then you should have the edge on ivey at least in the beginning...he may quickly surpass you, but at the very beginning u should have a better feel and read on the game than he does

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
I forgot the most important thing about my post.
If u put Irieguy, me, Phil Ivey and Citanul on a table, chances are Phil Ivey will own the table even though I MADE UP THE GAME!!!! I also see irieguy constantly outplaying me & citanul( im supposing citanul has never played other games REGULARLY ) Citanul vs Me..I believe I can be tough if Im to his left.

[/ QUOTE ]

You made up the game in parrallel to someone else who did (who taught to someone, who taught to someone) who taught it to me on ladbrokes during a limit ring game 3 years ago.

Phill

[valenzuela]

well if its HU its basically highest card, but the real beauty of the game is 4 handed. Anyway I want to get a debate going into how to play the hand I posted above, I already know how I would play it.
edit: Im sure the concept was invented many, many times, what I mean is that I made the rules up. My rules are: 4 handed, 20 times the antes and No limit.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I forgot the most important thing about my post.
If u put Irieguy, me, Phil Ivey and Citanul on a table, chances are Phil Ivey will own the table even though I MADE UP THE GAME!!!! I also see irieguy constantly outplaying me & citanul( im supposing citanul has never played other games REGULARLY ) Citanul vs Me..I believe I can be tough if Im to his left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Citanul is not going to be happy about how he is handicapped in this fictitious match.

Irieguy

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
but if u studied your game for a year, then you should have the edge on ivey at least in the beginning...he may quickly surpass you, but at the very beginning u should have a better feel and read on the game than he does

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

1 card stud is too alike other poker games for you to gain a big edge, if any edge at all. Its too straight forward to learn, has no special rules and relys on hand reading and betting pattern recognition which Ivey is a master of im sure.

Phill

[valenzuela]

Why not his the third best participant. If Im not his left he beats me, if Im to his left he beats me but he can have problems.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Citanul is not going to be happy about how he is handicapped in this fictitious match.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i'm no blind man's bluff expert, but i think i could pick up on it mildly quickly.

in my defense, i play limit holdem, no limit holdem, tournaments of various types, limit omaha high, limit omaha hi/lo, limit omaha hi/lo w/8 qual, stud8, stud8 with declarer, pot limit omaha high, pot limit o8, and triple draw (A-5, 2-7) all pretty well. i'm spending some time soon making my stud8 and stud high better. i try to play razz as often as i can.

lord knows how well i'd do 4 handed amongst that group. i'm guessing that on deepish stacks, ivy would kill me. on smallish stacks at any game, i'm assuming that ivy would probably beat me by a little bit over the long run, and on tiny stacks at nlhe, we'd probably be even, just as any good sng player would be.

sadly i won't be able to find out how i fare against other 2+2ers this year at the STTF-HU thingy. but you guys should invite phil and make a seat for him if he accepts /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

[valenzuela]

Its funny how I made up the game. I was with my friend and we needed one of us to do something v embarasing... in front of girls.
So I proposed Holdem, my friends declined saying I had an advantage. I then proposed blinds man bluff, knowing I had an advantage. I promised I had never played before( which was true), so basically I apllied the concecpt n that some posters disagree with.