Too passive with QQ?

[kingofswing]

After Party got it's act together last night, I played this hand. It's simple enough, and since I'm at work I'll just lay out what happened:

PP25

I'm UTG+1 with QQ, I raise to $1, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $4, all fold around to me, I call, UTG+2 calls $2 and is all-in.

So at this point, the UTG+2 is all-in and it's a side pot between me and MP1.

Flop 832r ($9/$2 side pot)

I check, MP1 bets $3, I call.

Turn 9 (completes rainbow)

I check, MP1 checks.

River A

I check, MP1 bets $5, I fold.

Okay, so I know I'm going to get flamed for playing this hand too passively. And I agree, I should've check-raised flop or led out the turn. The guy who put in the preflop reraise had stats about 45/17 I think, so I knew he probably didn't have a monster.

My thinking preflop was to just call the bet and see what happens, although I could have likely been more aggressive knowing the reraiser was pretty loose and reraised a bunch. But I wanted to see the flop first, not a huge leak I think.

Anyway, on the flop I figured I'm either way ahead or way behind and since the pot is now heads up, there's no reason to force this LAG's hand. He either has a bigger pair, a smaller pair, or a big ace. I doubt he would reraise my bet in early position so much without a decent hand. At any rate, the board has no draws, so there's no harm in giving a free card. If an A or K comes, that's tough luck, but seeing as I'm a 75/25 favorite here, I'll take those odds and not blast him out of the pot. Plus if I raise, and he reraises, well he might have TT or JJ and get me to lay down the best hand. So my plan to check/call.

Unfortunately, the ace hits the river. After I fold, he flips over AK and the guy who went all-in showed AT. So an unlucky beat. I was kind of mad that instead of turning a profit here I lost $7. But looking back, $3 was in the pot with the guy all-in and he would've won that anyway. I lost $4 to the guy with AK, but I think I played it right.

I know a more aggressive line would've likely have won me the side pot before the river, but when you know someone is reraising your EP raise and that they must have cards, doesn't my line make a little sense? I don't want to have to push because I know a hand that beats me could very possibly be out there and I also know that a worse hand, like TT or JJ, will likely play this hand the same way as AA or KK seeing as this guy is LAG.

Anyway, that's my defense. Flame away.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I lead the turn to protect against a 6 outer and to get value from JJ.

[kingofswing]

And what if he makes a big raise/pushes?

[phuc]

you fold, then again, this is PP25NL, and there are horrible players here...I'd fold to a push though.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Fold.

[theben]

i like leading the flop and seeing what happens. if you check-call the flop, you might want consider leading the turn to see what happens (with a non-committing bet)

[AaronO]

Anyone like a check raise on the flop? I think it helps define your hand.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone like a check raise on the flop? I think it helps define your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
arg! no. why in hell would you want to define your hand?

[theben]

i dont. maybe with a hand like a super tiny OP, small non set pocket, or something that might win the main pot against the player already all in via isolation

[AaronO]

Sorry, bad choice of words. If the guy is not going to go along with the check/check/check gig, then why not get your money in while you appear to be ahead? A check raise probably wins you the side pot right there, no?

Am I missing a nuance to playing with one person all in?

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
After Party got it's act together last night, I played this hand. It's simple enough, and since I'm at work I'll just lay out what happened:

PP25

I'm UTG+1 with QQ, I raise to $1, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $4, all fold around to me, I call, UTG+2 calls $2 and is all-in.

So at this point, the UTG+2 is all-in and it's a side pot between me and MP1.

Flop 832r ($9/$2 side pot)

I check, MP1 bets $3, I call.

Turn 9 (completes rainbow)

I check, MP1 checks.

River A

I check, MP1 bets $5, I fold.

Okay, so I know I'm going to get flamed for playing this hand too passively. And I agree, I should've check-raised flop or led out the turn. The guy who put in the preflop reraise had stats about 45/17 I think, so I knew he probably didn't have a monster.

My thinking preflop was to just call the bet and see what happens, although I could have likely been more aggressive knowing the reraiser was pretty loose and reraised a bunch. But I wanted to see the flop first, not a huge leak I think.

Anyway, on the flop I figured I'm either way ahead or way behind and since the pot is now heads up, there's no reason to force this LAG's hand. He either has a bigger pair, a smaller pair, or a big ace. I doubt he would reraise my bet in early position so much without a decent hand. At any rate, the board has no draws, so there's no harm in giving a free card. If an A or K comes, that's tough luck, but seeing as I'm a 75/25 favorite here, I'll take those odds and not blast him out of the pot. Plus if I raise, and he reraises, well he might have TT or JJ and get me to lay down the best hand. So my plan to check/call.

Unfortunately, the ace hits the river. After I fold, he flips over AK and the guy who went all-in showed AT. So an unlucky beat. I was kind of mad that instead of turning a profit here I lost $7. But looking back, $3 was in the pot with the guy all-in and he would've won that anyway. I lost $4 to the guy with AK, but I think I played it right.

I know a more aggressive line would've likely have won me the side pot before the river, but when you know someone is reraising your EP raise and that they must have cards, doesn't my line make a little sense? I don't want to have to push because I know a hand that beats me could very possibly be out there and I also know that a worse hand, like TT or JJ, will likely play this hand the same way as AA or KK seeing as this guy is LAG.

Anyway, that's my defense. Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already know you played it very passively. I would lead the flop for 2/3 and lead the turn for 2/3. I don't see the value in constantly protecting your hand against monsters under the bed. If the guy has AA or KK (and he will a portion of the time), you are going to lose a good sized pot and there is little you can do about it. If he doesn't have AA or KK (and he won't an overwhelming majority of the time), you are costing yourself money when you play your QQ this weakly.

In this hand, you never forced your opponent to make a mistake. According to the Fundamental Theory of Poker, you didn't play it like you would if you could see his cards. Therefore, poor play.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
According to the Fundamental Theory of Poker, you didn't play it like you would if you could see his cards. Therefore, poor play.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't take this to far. suppose someone has gone allin preflop on each of the last 10 hands. it's folded to him in the SB and he does it again, you call in the BB with KK. he has AA. if you had seen his cards you would have folded.

therefore, poor play??

I really don't think you played the hand that badly, other than I might have folded preflop. It's the rare person who is going to reraise an UTG raiser with just A-K, and even if he does have A-K, queens plays real difficult after the flop b/c you're not sure if it's good. I also think the thing that everyone who says bet out the flop neglects to think about is that if the guy does have aces or kings, you're putting yourself in a real bad spot. If I have aces or kings with this flop and someone bets into me I'm smooth calling and looking to raise on the turn because I'm nearly certain that your preflop raise represents something like tens, jacks, or queens. Then, if he slow plays you and bumps it on the turn, you might just have to call because of the pot size. It seems like leading the flop puts you in a position to quite easily loose your whole stack. By playing the way you did, you essentially kept the pot small, which I think is good because you had no real idea where you were. And like you said, he's only got 5 out after the turn, so you're taking that pot down on the river something like 87% of the time.
Furthermore, by playing it the way you did, you're actually encouraging him to bluff the river even if he misses because you showed weakness. With no ace or king, you probably are going to have to call. I don't think you made a terrible play at all.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think you played the hand that badly, other than I might have folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is madness. Where do you people play regularly?

Not sure I would say folding preflop in this spot is "madness." Let's look at it a little. I think that someone reraising an UTG raiser probably has aces or kings about half the time (I think it's probably more than that, but for argument's sake, I'll say half). The other half, he probably has A-K, although occasionally you'll find someone over playing jacks or tens. So half the time you're nearly dead, and the other half, you'll be dead 33% of the time after the flop. Furthermore, if no ace or king hits, and you bet out, A-K folds and you didn't really make a whole lot on it anyway. And the half of the time that he has aces or kings and you lead out, you get hit hard. Regardless, you lose this hand in the end probably around 65% of the time. Why get involved in that? These numbers I throw out are of course just my own speculations and I would be glad to here comments. But my point is that I don't think it's "madness" to dump queens prefop in this situation, especially out of position.

[BigF]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I would say folding preflop in this spot is "madness." Let's look at it a little. I think that someone reraising an UTG raiser probably has aces or kings about half the time (I think it's probably more than that, but for argument's sake, I'll say half). The other half, he probably has A-K, although occasionally you'll find someone over playing jacks or tens. So half the time you're nearly dead, and the other half, you'll be dead 33% of the time after the flop. Furthermore, if no ace or king hits, and you bet out, A-K folds and you didn't really make a whole lot on it anyway. And the half of the time that he has aces or kings and you lead out, you get hit hard. Regardless, you lose this hand in the end probably around 65% of the time. Why get involved in that? These numbers I throw out are of course just my own speculations and I would be glad to here comments. But my point is that I don't think it's "madness" to dump queens prefop in this situation, especially out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]


He said the guy is 45/17 (maniac) so folding was not an option. Pusing preflop is a lot better, considering that the guy is a maniac and the pot's not tiny at that point ($6) and you will be out of position post flop.

[Rosie5]

what are you doing raising 1$ UTG with QQ?

1.50$-1.75 is what id do

this is .10/.25 homey...

his reraise woulda given you more information too because of this

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I would say folding preflop in this spot is "madness." Let's look at it a little. I think that someone reraising an UTG raiser probably has aces or kings about half the time (I think it's probably more than that, but for argument's sake, I'll say half). The other half, he probably has A-K, although occasionally you'll find someone over playing jacks or tens. So half the time you're nearly dead, and the other half, you'll be dead 33% of the time after the flop. Furthermore, if no ace or king hits, and you bet out, A-K folds and you didn't really make a whole lot on it anyway. And the half of the time that he has aces or kings and you lead out, you get hit hard. Regardless, you lose this hand in the end probably around 65% of the time. Why get involved in that? These numbers I throw out are of course just my own speculations and I would be glad to here comments. But my point is that I don't think it's "madness" to dump queens prefop in this situation, especially out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your weak tight play and ability to back it up with self serving statistics will be quite a leak as you move up levels. I too play at lower limits but saying a UTG maniac raiser will have AA or KK 50% of the time or more is ludicrous.