Post in Cutoff, Flop 2nd pair

[dcarlc]

3/6 PP 10 handed

I just sat down, No reads on any players.

Utg raise, Utg+1 calls, folds to me in cutoff, I call A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, Utg bets, Utg+1 raises, I?

To me seems like a simple fold. Is there any reason togo on against unknown opponents?

[OnkelHotte]

u get 6.5 to 1 for ur 5 outer that must be discounted to 3-4 outs. without any benefits like backdoorflush on this two suited board this is imo a clear and easy fold without reads.

[Chairman Wood]

IMO, no. Not only do you have a 2nd pair but a weak 2nd pair too. Vunerable to a whole lot of draw outs here. If I counted right you are getting about 7:1 from the pot. Your outs are very tainted. Fold.

[sy_or_bust]

There's rarely a need to count outs in these situations. Clear, intuitive fold.

Preflop you should fold also. The pot is too small to chase a draw, and your ace sucks.

[imaptone]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop you should fold also. The pot is too small to chase a draw, and your ace sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the call here is fine. You have position on the raiser. At a new table with no reads, I think it is pretty weak to fold ATs.

I agree that the fold in the hand is fine too.

[sy_or_bust]

First, my mistake - Hero posted. Calling is fine.

If anyone contemplates a cold-call here in the hypothetical, they shouldn't. This is bad play. You have an unknown EP raiser and an EP cold-caller, where the chances you are dominated are astronomical. If you flop an ace, you will often have to fold the flop, and you don't have implied odds to chase draws or cute 2-pair hands. This is a pretty easy fold with 2 EP players in a raised pot and all folds to you.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you flop an ace, you will often have to fold the flop, and you don't have implied odds to chase draws or cute 2-pair hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. In that spot, I want to flop an Ace.

[W. Deranged]

Sfer,

Agreed. Why all the fear of flopping top pair??? I think too many people have been reading either: a) Lee Jones; b) Ciaffone/Brier; c) other books designed for total newbs or play against very good players.

The constant fear of getting outkicked that is instilled early in people's poker education I think is often a little exaggerated. It's a necessary early step to keep learning players from donkishly playing every A, but I think it may lead to tight-weakness later on.

I can see possibly argument for why A10 shouldn't be played pre-flop given certain profiles for the villains, but I think the idea that you will often have to get out when the A hits is misguided. The A hitting the flop is, on average, going to increase your equity from where it was pre-flop, not decrease it.

[sy_or_bust]

You're done to a bet and a raise in front of you, and in uncertain shape facing a bet and a call (you don't fold, but it isn't much fun). The only clear situation IMO occurs against a bet and a fold and you're heads-up (calling down). The worst is a messy flop + auto-bet, when you usually have to fold. Even if your equity is enough, and it often is, the lack of information prevents you from continuing in some spots that would be profitable.

So there is no fear of flopping top pair, but problems postflop that do not necessarily compensate for the preflop investment given the information we know. I don't enjoy participating in these passive-play hands where I cannot or should not play my good hands aggressively. Here, I don't think a cold-call is +EV and am surprised by the resistance so far.

[W. Deranged]

Sy,

I think you're right to a great degree, and I'm glad you've clarified. There are very many times where against an EP raiser and an EP cold-caller this hand hits the muck (in fact, most of the time).

My point was simply that the idea that you will have to get off top pair a lot here is not precise reasoning for why this should be folded.

If we think of what happens when proceeding with an unpaired hand like A10 post flop, we realize we need to consider two quantities:

1. The probability we will find ourselves in a +EV spot after the flop hits.

2. How +EV that situation will be on average.

My point is basically that hitting an A is going to be a +EV spot on average, in my estimation. It simply will be less +EV than if your hand was, say, AK, and this shortfall in expected return when you do "hit your hand" (due, yes, largely to domination) is what will usually push A10s to a fold in situations like the one described.

So my point was more about seeing how the reality of the hand flows through the mathematics and being precise about what quantities in the equation we are talking about.

[J. Sawyer]

def. a fold

[sfer]

The coldcaller did so UTG+1; he's clearly a donkey. I have zero problem and not the slightest bit of apprehension about calling down a bet/call in front of me on every street on a drawless A-high board. I'm not going to fold hands because I can't play them aggressively postflop.

I never said anything about coldcalling with ATs after an UTG raise and 1 coldcaller. I would fold too.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
I never said anything about coldcalling with ATs after an UTG raise and 1 coldcaller. I would fold too.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's the situation I was talking about.

[Sarge85]

PF, your call is fine.

Flop - fold.

If even there was one diamond, or a second broadway card - I'd rethink.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[sfer]

Read my post again. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2928269&page=0&view=e xpanded&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

[callmedonnie]

I can see folding this flop. I can also see three betting preflop.

[sy_or_bust]

I know what you're saying. This whole thing seems ridiculously basic. My point about flopping an ace applies exclusively to a cold-call, or at least I meant it to. You obviously cannot expect your ace outs to be clean when calling 2 bets versus 2 early players, which means you'll have to fold or pay off sometimes when you hit your "outs". That isn't to say you don't want to flop an ace - of course you do. The point is that when you do, you're in a worse shape than you usually are with this top pair owing to the EP action. Add that to the times you have to fold when you miss, etc., and there isn't enough juice in the hand to cold-call.

[callmedonnie]

my bad. read it wrong.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I know what you're saying. This whole thing seems ridiculously basic. My point about flopping an ace applies exclusively to a cold-call, or at least I meant it to. You obviously cannot expect your ace outs to be clean when calling 2 bets versus 2 early players, which means you'll have to fold or pay off sometimes when you hit your "outs". That isn't to say you don't want to flop an ace - of course you do. The point is that when you do, you're in a worse shape than you usually are with this top pair owing to the EP action. Add that to the times you have to fold when you miss, etc., and there isn't enough juice in the hand to cold-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is basic. You said, "If you flop an ace, you will often have to fold the flop..." and that is just wrong. I'm saying nothing about coldcalling; I wouldn't. But if I found myself on the flop in that situation I'm folding almost never and calling almost always.

[dcarlc]

I really wanted to call(or 3 bet)? I did not think the raise meant alot(possibly a draw), didn't figure him for king because if his king was not good enough for a raise preflop, I don't think it was good enough now.

Hand played out like this.

I fold, button folds, BB calls, UTG calls(shoot)

Turn:4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checks around

River:7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, UTG bets, fold, fold

UTG shows pocket 9's, and gets up and leaves.

Part of my thinking was also I would probably get to showdown for 3.5 BB's total(If it is more than that I don't think I would be good). This is my first hand and do I really want to start off in the hole if I'm wrong with a marginal hand. Is this thinking to soft?

[Sarge85]

This time - the worse hand won, and you folded the winner.

Happens...

However, given the action, against "typical" opponents - I don't think calling two bets with second pair - no redraws is a long term winner for you.

NH

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif