Should I take a last stab at it?

[Yuv]

I'm a bit puzzeled about this hand, thought I might get some advice here.

Playing a short handed (6 players) 38$ SnG on Stars.
18 minutes in it, we're down to 5, I got 2400 chips (started with 1500) which is good for 2nd at the moment, but that doesn't really matter.
I took down about four pots, havn't shown a hand yet.

Villian is an EXTREMELY bad player, but at that time, all I knew of him is that he calls down alot of hands (on the verge of a certified calling station), he doesn't care, or know, about odds and he took some beating a couple rounds before this one, when he called down his hand against Aces, on a 3-way pot (which took us down to 5).

He has about the starting 1500 chips after nearly doubling up early.

I pick Jh9h on the button. Folded to me. I make it X3 BB (90 chips), which is my standard raise at that point.

Villian calls from the SB, BB folds.

The flop comes A102, one heart. Villian checks to me, and I'm pretty sure he missed the flop. Pot is 210, I bet 150, trying to represent an Ace. Villian insta-calls.

Turn is another heart, giving me a flush draw, and I still don't think he has anything, just looking for a draw. He checks to me again, and I bet 350 (pot at 510). He insta-calls again.

river bricks completely, nothing on the board. He checks to me again.

What's my move here? I'm certain he doesn't have A2, or any ace, for that matter. He can't be slowplaying anything big, other than maybe 2-2. That leaves me with a broken draw of some sort, or K10/Q10/J10 for middle pair.

Do I check behind, taking an almost certain beat for a hefty pot, or put him all in, assuming he can't call with his hand. I thought about faking a value bet, but that's probably way too fancy.

Any thoughts? (And I'm a 2+2 newbie, so if i'm boring the hell out of ya, let the post die. Thank you:))

[tigerite]

Fold preflop. Don't get frisky for 45 chips with J9s, there really is no need.

[Yuv]

You might be right, but shorthanded, I like to be aggressive early on. The blinds go up rather quickly and the orbits gets smaller and smaller, so I find that your image plays a big part. Playing aggressive early, at least as I see it, will earn me some much needed walks later on.

(or maybe i'm overanalyzing, trying to justify my preflop play, but what the hell /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

[nWirb]

What are you doing trying to bluff a calling station on all streets? He might call you down even on the river with just king high, that's what calling stations do and that's why you dont bluff them, he will pay you off when you have a real hand.

[me1tdown]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing trying to bluff a calling station on all streets? He might call you down even on the river with just king high, that's what calling stations do and that's why you dont bluff them, he will pay you off when you have a real hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Part of the problem is that with his style of play you can't really put him on a narrow range of hands with any degree of confidence. OK, you took a shot at the flop, but that didn't chase him off. Now you're working a draw, why not take the free card(s) and milk chips off when you have something.

[PrayingMantis]

Hey Yuv, Ma Kore?

You say about villain that "he calls down alot of hands (on the verge of a certified calling station)". That's the worst kind of opponent to be aggressive against, or to represent hands to. It's basically an opponent to play tight and value bet against (especially when blinds are still pretty low).

Since you don't have a hand, from beginning to end, trying to push him out will just cost you too much and will gain you little. Against such an opponent you win by playing a patient game, waiting for a good enough hand against him, or letting some other player to bluff him to death (or to value bet him good...) and by that increasing your EV in the tourney, since it's very good for you when players are playing badly against each other when you're not involved. That's the nice thing about SNGs.

[Yuv]

He's not retarded, he's just playing what must be a losing strategy. He like to see flops, he likes to see turns and he likes to see rivers. He's not blind though. If he faces an all in with K high, he won't call.

I think I gave a pretty poor description of what I feel is a bit more interesting situation, but so be it, I'll work on my posting skills /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

I checked behind, he had JQo for queen high and took the pot. I had a great read on his hand, and I didn't use it wisely enough...

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked behind, he had JQo for queen high and took the pot. I had a great read on his hand, and I didn't use it wisely enough...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not surprising at all that he had nothing more than a gut-shot and was calling you down, according to your very description of his style. But that still doesn't make pushing the river correct, or playing aggressively in general against him.

There's a very good chance he's folding this particular hand he had, but that's results oriented thinking. Suppose he has a different hand, as poor as K2, or T8, or A3, whatever, all are possible. But with these hands he actually catches some piece of the board, and could feel more gutsy about calling a big bet even on the river (especially if he improves to some crazy 2-pair or whatever, that you can never put him on). Many calling stations by their nature tend to think that others bluff them all the time. And since his range is very wide, as with such players, you have very little information about the actual hand he has (regardless of any general read) and how far he will be willing to go with it, plus you have very little folding equity, which is often the most important part of equity in such situations. These are the reasons why being too agressive in such spots is not recommended and people are not crazy about it here.

[Yuv]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I checked behind, he had JQo for queen high and took the pot. I had a great read on his hand, and I didn't use it wisely enough...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not surprising at all that he had nothing more than a gut-shot and was calling you down, according to your very description of his style. But that still doesn't make pushing the river correct, or playing aggressively in general against him.

There's a very good chance he's folding this particular hand he had, but that's results oriented thinking. Suppose he has a different hand, as poor as K2, or T8, or A3, whatever, all are possible. But with these hands he actually catches some piece of the board, and could feel more gutsy about calling a big bet even on the river (especially if he improves to some crazy 2-pair or whatever, that you can never put him on). Many calling stations by their nature tend to think that others bluff them all the time. And since his range is very wide, as with such players, you have very little information about the actual hand he has (regardless of any general read) and how far he will be willing to go with it, plus you have very little folding equity, which is often the most important part of equity in such situations. These are the reasons why being too agressive in such spots is not recommended and people are not crazy about it here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess you're right. I didn't think the play really hurt me, though. Showing down that I can bet with nothing really helped me later on in the tournament.

After about 48 hours of play in Stars, I must say, i'm not impressed by the level of play there /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks for the reply. I guess I was being too results oriented.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing trying to bluff a calling station on all streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

(in response to the poster/posters who said to fold preflop)

I don't like folding J9h preflop at all and would go so far to say it's terrible. If you want to fold this hand for 1/50th of your stack preflop on the button, then you shouldnt be playing 6 max sit and go's.

btw it's also ok to limp in from the button here, and of course folding is fine too. I would base my choice on the players involved, my image etc etc.

[Nicholasp27]

won't them knowing u'll raise/bet with nothing make it harder for you to steal the blinds later?

they won't respect your pushes so you can't do much stealing...seems like u'd be in a lot of coinflips

[HesseJam]

[ QUOTE ]
You might be right, but shorthanded, I like to be aggressive early on. The blinds go up rather quickly and the orbits gets smaller and smaller, so I find that your image plays a big part. Playing aggressive early, at least as I see it, will earn me some much needed walks later on.



[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, doesn't seem right what you are saying. Why is playing aggro early giving you free walks later on?

[Uppercut]

Never try to repeatedly bluff a calling station. They are called calling stations for a reason.

In the words of Homer Simpson, "May I play Devil's Advocate?" BTW, I just discovered this site a couple of days ago, so please don't flame me too hard. I am excited about the improvement to my game I feel this interaction can have. Anyway, I feel that the responses, while helpful, do not address the OP's question. To the OP, I would also reiterate, don't bluff a calling station, value bet him, etc. etc. But, in regards to this situation specifically, I think that a push would actually be a pretty good move, if based on the read that you put on the opponent. Consider the possibilities for a moment, you started the hand with t2400 and villain with t1500. At the moment you are considering the push, you have t1810 and he had t910, with t1210 in the pot. So the possibilities are that a) you check behind and essentially give up the pot, remaining with t1810, b) you push and he folds, winning you the pot and putting you at t3020, or c) you push and are called, losing the pot and are down to t900. As an aggressive player that relies on his reads, this is a situation I sometimes face where I have made nothing and can only win with a bet. Sometimes, I just feel like my opponent has a very marginal hand but does not want to be pushed around. This is especially true if he shows periods of hesitation before clicking call (although this could simply mean multitabling). The way you have played the hand is as if you had a strong A, or perhaps even two pair. If you push, based upon your read of him as marginal to weak, it is very hard for even the worst calling station to call you without at least an A. Finally, even if you are called, it's not the end of the world as you still have t900 or 30 bb, giving you time to be somewhat patient and rebuild. I just wanted to give you some advice in regards to the situation on the river...although the previous advice about betting a calling station applies. However, you had a good read and almost certainly would have taken down the pot. As Doyle says, you can't just leave your children stranded in the pot. Although it's a play to be used very sparingly, and is somewhat high risk, I think this is a situation where you must trust your read and push. I hope this was somewhat helpful, and I am open to the any responses. Best of luck.