15/30 Hand at Hollywood Park

[stackm]

I'm in the small blind. It's folded around to the cutoff, who raises. I don't have a great read on this player, but I've been in a couple hands with him, and he seems like a loose-aggressive player who knows what he's doing. He tried to put a play on me on an earlier hand, but I called him down with top pair weak kicker and he showed high card.

In any case, the button folds and I look down at 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and make it three bets. The big blind folds, cutoff calls, and we go to the flop with $90 in the pot.

The flop comes Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet out, cutoff raises, I three bet. He calls.

Turn comes 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, completing the rainbow. I bet, he raises, I fold. Any commentary on my line?

[mike l.]

donk check the turn and take it to showdown is the best way to play it against a player capable of making a move.

another hp 15-30 poster eh? uh oh...

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
we go to the flop with $90 in the pot.



[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think this way?

[Fillamoore]

Actually, there shouldve been $105 in the pot...but hey, who's counting.
Anyways, by the time you folded you were being offered pot odds (with implied odds) of about 11 to 1. Obviously not good enough so a fold was correct if you thought you were beat. I personally like checking the turn and just calling him down. If you got him beat, he'll bluff his money to you, if not, you're only losing two more big bets. Not bad considering you lost 1 and dont evne know if he was good or not. It looks like a variation to the play where you smooth call the flop with position then raise the turn when theres a pair on board...as to represent it. Since it could very easily be that check/call i think is the best approach.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
we go to the flop with $90 in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you really think this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he counted wrong, but are you saying he shouldn't be thinking about the size of the pot?

[mike l.]

"Well he counted wrong, but are you saying he shouldn't be thinking about the size of the pot?"

no. what he was saying is that one shouldnt be thinking about the pot in terms of being an amount of dollars. it should always be an amount of small bets or big bets.

[stackm]

[ QUOTE ]
"Well he counted wrong, but are you saying he shouldn't be thinking about the size of the pot?"

no. what he was saying is that one shouldnt be thinking about the pot in terms of being an amount of dollars. it should always be an amount of small bets or big bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, as you noted, I counted wrong - but that aside, what difference does it make? It really doesn't matter if I think of it as $30 to win $180 or 1 big bet to win 6 big bets - either way I know I'm getting 6 to 1.

[mike l.]

"It really doesn't matter if I think of it as $30 to win $180 or 1 big bet to win 6 big bets"

a couple things:

1. most players shift between limits (10-20, 15-30, 20-40, 25-50, 30-60, 40-80, etc) so it gets confusing to think of it in terms of dollars when you switch around. not just for hero but for readers too.

2. one could argue that psychologically it's important to detach oneself from the idea that your playing with money or dollars. theyre just chips and bets. ideally one would make the right decision whether it's $120 in the pot and theyre playing 15-30 or it's $1200 in the pot and we're playing 150-300. i think that's what the initial respondent was getting at.

[stackm]

Point taken. I understand that using the dollar figure may not be the best way to go about things - especially if I'm posting a hand here. I just thought the "Is this really the way you think?" comment was a little bit harsh, lol. It's not like it's an irrational or stupid method; it may not be the most concise, but it's perfectly correct (except for the fact that I miscounted, lol).

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the small blind. It's folded around to the cutoff, who raises. I don't have a great read on this player, but I've been in a couple hands with him, and he seems like a loose-aggressive player who knows what he's doing. He tried to put a play on me on an earlier hand, but I called him down with top pair weak kicker and he showed high card.

In any case, the button folds and I look down at 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and make it three bets. The big blind folds, cutoff calls, and we go to the flop with $90 in the pot.

The flop comes Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet out, cutoff raises, I three bet. He calls.

Turn comes 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, completing the rainbow. I bet, he raises, I fold. Any commentary on my line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think the fold is a terrible fold... but since the player is new to you and you have a modest hand with some showdown value right now... I would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible and learn a little more about my opponent. Just my thought... a little investment to learn a lot. However, when you lead the turn and he raises you have to make a decision about what you want to do... fold or call down...

I think you may have made the right decision for the line you chose... However, if you picked a different line then maybe you could of gotten to showdown?? Just my thoughts on the subject! I think you played the hand fine for the chosen line. I love the 3-bet preflop...

[MJS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the small blind. It's folded around to the cutoff, who raises. I don't have a great read on this player, but ... he seems like a loose-aggressive player who knows what he's doing. In any case, the button folds and I look down at 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and make it three bets ... The flop comes Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet out, cutoff raises, I three bet. He calls ... Turn comes 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, completing the rainbow. I bet, he raises, I fold. Any commentary on my line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think the fold is a terrible fold... I would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible and learn a little more about my opponent. Just my thought... I think you played the hand fine for the chosen line. I love the 3-bet preflop...

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me understand this - Why is 3 betting 77 from the SB a good play? What flop are you looking for against a LAP - only one that contains a 7 in my opinion.

In addition, once you take a shot on the flop and get played with, your hand is pretty much dead.

No offense, but this kind of play is what has enabled me to go from 1-2 to 20-40 in four (long or short) years.

Finally, as a side thought, can a LAP really know what he is doing?

[golferbrent]

I think the 3 bet preflop is definitely the only play preflop. First off you want to isolate and a LAP can raise with any 2 so why not put the pressure on him to make a hand. I don't have any problem with getting some bets in preflop with the best hand and also taking control of the hand.

Once the flop comes and the LAP plays back at you... you need to decide how you want to proceed and also determine what the LAP is capable of... hence my reasoning to get the end... but with the chosen line of leading again on the turn... then the fold is the correct play...

It is just a matter of how you want to proceed and whether you want to get to showdown... for me early in a live session against an unknown player I want to learn his playing tendencies so I can better execute against this player later...

For me that is very important b/c I play 95% of my poker live and taking advantage of my opponents is one of my biggest strengths...

[MJS]

OK - lets look at this another way - LAP is an unknow but is an LAP.

The way the hand was played cost our hero 4 BBs. What if...

Pre flop - Call
Flop - Check Call
Turn - Check Call
River - Check Call

Total cost - 3.5 BBs

If you have the best hand (or get the best hand on the river for even more BBs) you find out what the LAP plays from that position.

If you do not have the best hand you lose 1/2 a BB less.

Thoughts ?

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me understand this - Why is 3 betting 77 from the SB a good play? What flop are you looking for against a LAP - only one that contains a 7 in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when the raiser has KTo and the tight BB folds A3s you will be very happy when the flop comes A,5,2 and the action goes bet/fold.

[MJS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me understand this - Why is 3 betting 77 from the SB a good play? What flop are you looking for against a LAP - only one that contains a 7 in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when the raiser has KTo and the tight BB folds A3s you will be very happy when the flop comes A,5,2 and the action goes bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the BB is a tight player, would he call a raise with A3 out of position with the SB calling? If so, what if the flop comes A7Q? There are a lot of possible flops, most of which are dangerous to 77 in first position. In addition, what if instead of the BB folding, he decides to cap it knowing that the button is an LAP and having position on the new player in the SB?

I just think this was not the best way to play the hand in this situation.

In addition, if played the way I described in my previous post, you establish an image as a LPP (or calling station) which if you are not, will confuse the rest of the table for awhile giving you an advantage on a future hand.

[mike l.]

"I just think this was not the best way to play the hand in this situation."

when coming in from the sb against a button openraise it's correct to almost always reraise to get the hand heads up. read hpfap for good explanation.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
OK - lets look at this another way - LAP is an unknow but is an LAP.

The way the hand was played cost our hero 4 BBs. What if...

Pre flop - Call
Flop - Check Call
Turn - Check Call
River - Check Call

Total cost - 3.5 BBs

If you have the best hand (or get the best hand on the river for even more BBs) you find out what the LAP plays from that position.

If you do not have the best hand you lose 1/2 a BB less.

Thoughts ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play this hand at all, you must reraise. Otherwise the BB is getting 5 to 1 on his call. Playing a mid pair out of position is not a great spot.

Reraise, get it headsup and take the lead.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB is a tight player, would he call a raise with A3 out of position with the SB calling? If so, what if the flop comes A7Q? There are a lot of possible flops, most of which are dangerous to 77 in first position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are actually making a good argument for raising. Others have already elaborated but I just wanted to comment on this one part. If you are not playing from the BB with Axs getting 5:1 closing the action from the BB vs a steal raise and a SB call you are playing too tight.