Advanced Theory: Winning a half bet

Ok here she is. Your at a limit table, 6 handed. 3 fold, your heads up with AJ. The flop comes KJ4. BB bets, you raise, he calls, turn blank card, he checks you bet, river another blank he checks you check. At a limit table you just saved yourself a half bet!!! Since u checked the Riv but raised the turn, you did 3 things, first...saved a half bet because of the larger river bet, second, positioned yourself for an extra full bet if you fill (another jack or perhaps ace) and third, tested out his hand strength. If he has k3 he may just fold!!! also, he may be bluffing and may fold, either way your way better off with this raise. Note here if he reraises you you must fold!~

I have been doing this for months on short handed tables as part of my super aggressive play. The half bets add up!
let me know what you think about this advanced poker theory.
thanks
chris larmore
larmorec@msu.edu

[DMBFan23]

the larger river bet has been kicking my ass for so long now, I have no idea how to handle it anymore.

[speirs]

Hi Chris, FYI: You will get a lot of spam if you keep posting your mailaddress.

[speirs]

Also, I see you have many great theories like this one. The one in SSH with the aces is the best. Keep up the good work! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TiltsMcFabulous]

Funny stuff.

~ Tilts

[GuyOnTilt]

Can I just ban you now?

GoT

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I just ban you now?

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

I was gunna say something really clever like "my black marble is in the box". But then I couldnt remember which marble meant "in favor of" the black one, or the white one /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[J. Sawyer]

wtf?

[baronzeus]

I cant understand your logic.

[Sykes]

J, I think Alobar is referring to the marbles in the box of the book "The Chocolate War". Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok here she is. Your at a limit table, 6 handed. 3 fold, your heads up with AJ. The flop comes KJ4. BB bets, you raise, he calls, turn blank card, he checks you bet, river another blank he checks you check. At a limit table you just saved yourself a half bet!!! Since u checked the Riv but raised the turn, you did 3 things, first...saved a half bet because of the larger river bet, second, positioned yourself for an extra full bet if you fill (another jack or perhaps ace) and third, tested out his hand strength. If he has k3 he may just fold!!! also, he may be bluffing and may fold, either way your way better off with this raise. Note here if he reraises you you must fold!~

I have been doing this for months on short handed tables as part of my super aggressive play. The half bets add up!
let me know what you think about this advanced poker theory.
thanks
chris larmore
larmorec@msu.edu

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming this is a joke. If not, thats just a bad theory. First, the river bet is the same size as the turn bet in holdem. You can actually get yourself a free River card with your flop raise, but thats only if you're planning on checking the turn, which you did not, and I wouldn't want to check this turn anyway, thats an easy bet if you're going to raise the flop. Second, he's not laying down k/3 at a 6 max table. Third, this hand needs context, we need to know what happenned preflop and what your positions are, this is very important to determining how properly to play this hand. Finally, you're costing yourself bets, not saving yourself bets if you don't value bet your rivers, and in the long run that will kill you. Whether or not to value bet this river of course is read dependent on the villain.

[poker-penguin]

The idea of "black balling" goes a long way back beyond the Chocolate war (although that is a great book)

black = we don't want this bounder in our club.
White = he's a fine fellow.

Different clubs (mainly talking bout Victorian England now) had different rules about who got to vote and how many blackballs it took to keep a prospective member out.

[MrFeelNothin]

give the guy a break, he meant flop, not turn.

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]

give the guy a break, he meant flop, not turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

[CallMeIshmael]

Though it isnt obvious by this thread, he is a troll. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2920600&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[Xhiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
Though it isnt obvious by this thread, he is a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need not be so harsh. From these two threads, it's clear he is genuinely trying to contribute, although perhaps a little misguided in some of his ideas.

to cdlarmore:
while I wouldn't call the "raising the flop for free showdown" line an "advanced theory", it is a valid one. However, there are situations where you might want to bet the river for value, especially in the one you suggested.
Short-handed, you're almost certainly not getting someone to fold with something that bets your 2nd pair (top kicker), especially after a flop raise.

The situations are subtle, but there are times on the flop when you have position and would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. (namely, you have too good a hand to fold, but you think that you have a slightly less than 50% chance of winning overall), so by raising the flop (if all goes smoothly and you aren't 3bet or check-raised on the flop), then yes, you saved yourself half a bet.

The real question would be, if you're raising the flop to either check behind on the turn or the river, which one do you do it on? and of course, they both have their pros and cons, it too is a very subtle matter.

[MaxPower]

I think it is funny that you are advocating playing your hand in a way that is wrong when you are behind and is also wrong when you are ahead. Yet somehow this is an advanced play.

Not to say that I don't sometimes do this, but I don't think it is a brilliant maneuver. It would also be easily exploitable by a good player.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Though it isnt obvious by this thread, he is a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need not be so harsh. From these two threads, it's clear he is genuinely trying to contribute

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

[ QUOTE ]
rockets posting a joke

[/ QUOTE ]

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2922793&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

ur on the button, the guy is on the BB.
the flop u raised is 1 half a big bet, so when u check the river, u save urself that half of the big bet cuz ur raise only cost half as much. also, u wouldnt value bet here unelss u were sure the other guy didnt have the king, you u filled ur hand with an a or jack...
cdl

bet the turn, check the river unless u fill.

I wasnt thourough enough in my original post. yea your only saving a half bet, but that can put ur hourly expected rate up 2 big bets per hours depending on circumstance, and thats what poker is about, increasing hourly expected rate.

also, its a feeler bet, u can get a good read if u put bb to a raise after the flop, if they have just bet low pair, they will get away from it, if you fill you hand with an ace or jack, your making ur half bet raise, plus the full river bet. if you check the turn here, u get a freebie, but the bb will certainly bet the river with ur call. I like to be in the driver seat if i know im going to call through which i certainly would be doing with aj on that flop.

a raise there is much better than a call or fold, and the turn bet gives him another chance to fold, and u a free river if you dont fill...
prob not advanced but something to think about, say ur game is totally on top (mine isnt) and ur max hourly expectesd rate. this play can add at least 2bb per hour at a 6 person turbo table...
im done posting because aparently im dumb about poker
cdl

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
ur on the button, the guy is on the BB.
the flop u raised is 1 half a big bet, so when u check the river, u save urself that half of the big bet cuz ur raise only cost half as much. also, u wouldnt value bet here unelss u were sure the other guy didnt have the king, you u filled ur hand with an a or jack...
cdl

[/ QUOTE ]

His best post is right here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/toggleignore.php?Cat=&User=41085&Board=holdem&Numb er=2927738&what=showflat&page=0&view=collapsed&sb= 5&o=14)

your obviously not using this play every time, often if i know its a good player, ill only do it when i have a great hand, and ill reraise his raise which gets em going real well, you can build great pots like this. if the guy isnt a sucker, dont try a suckers move on him eh....

logic,
raise on the flop is 1/2 bb+ raise = 1,
bet on turn is 1 bb
check on the river if u dont fill free..
2 bb total

now...
a call,
call the flop bet, call the turn, river, 2.5 bbs!

if u fill...
flop .5bb, raised makes 1 full, turn 1 bb, river 1bb
3 bb

so if u fill, ur ahead 1 bet, if u dont and ur beat, u save a half bet...

folding here isnt a good option with 2nd pair best kick...

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]

im done posting because aparently im an arrogant moron


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

-SmileyEH