How does Kill affect strategy?

[VBCurtis]

Morongo's 3/6 HE game is full kill, which I've never seen at such a low limit. Should I be more aggressive when the pot is killed? Is there any reason to loosen up to become the killer? How does game texture change this? For example, I've seen tables where 6 see the flop most hands fold around to me when it's killed, and tables where nothing changes. (when nothing changes, I assume you just play your usual game on kill pots).

Seems there's little discussion of kill strategy in most HE books.. is the feature that uninteresting to not merit discussion?

[midas]

What is the kill criteria - 2 winning hands in a row or pot size? The 2 wins in a row rarely happens, so strategy adjustment is not necessary. Pot size may produce more kills and put some people out of their bank-roll comfort zone but if they're sitting they know the cost to play. I'm not a big fan of pot size kills because of the wild pot swings. I would just play your normal game.

[Bremen]

One thing you have to remember is that if you're going to have to post a kill if you win a pot then the pot is essentially smaller by that ammount. So if you're on the end and with the nuts and someone bets into you, it isn't worth raising if that would cause it to be a kill.

Ok, that isn't going to happen very often. But you get the idea :0)

[Al_Capone_Junior]

full kill games are more the norm than not in southern california, starting at 3-6.

There is little strategy change necessary, except when you are "leg-up." Here, you're going to have to post a kill blind if you win the pot, thus you must subtract that forced kill blind from the size of the pot you are now in (meaning your pot odds are smaller than the appear). This also means playing slightly tighter preflop when you have the no-kill or leg-up button.

Also, the presence of a kill blind might slightly alter your normal preflop odds, but usually not by much.

Other than that, it's no different than simply playing another hand, albeit at twice the stakes.

In southern california, the object for most players when they have the no-kill button is TO MAKE IT A KILL NO MATTER WHAT. Then, the object when there is a kill pot IS TO PLAY EXTRA-STUPID. Adjust to that.

al

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
In southern california, the object for most players when they have the no-kill button is TO MAKE IT A KILL NO MATTER WHAT. Then, the object when there is a kill pot IS TO PLAY EXTRA-STUPID. Adjust to that.

al

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent assessment.

[callydrias]

In addition to what Al said, you need to adjust to the play of the people around you. I find that there are always a couple of people at the table that tighten up a lot in kill pots (they don't want to risk the extra money) so you can be more aggressive and push them off hands. There's also usually one or two people who become more aggressive in kill pots, probably recognizing the weak-tightness in the first group. Just play your regular game and make adjustments when you see how your opponents play.

[VBCurtis]

Thanks for the replies!
The kill criterion is two pots in a row, with first above $40 (at 3/6). Only once did I see the leg-up not passed to someone, meaning the pots were always over $40.

The kill happened about a dozen times in the 5 hours I played, with 2 people who clearly loosened up when possessing the leg-up; it seemed backwards, but I thought I might be missing some advantage other than LAG pride for killing. The killer at this room always acts last preflop, which I can see as a significant advantage when cutoff or button, especially for a LAG.

What is the reason to have a kill? I thought it was intended to stimulate action, but that's clearly not necessary at SoCal 3-6 tables. If the necessary adjustments are small, why have it at all? That said, I like it, since it seems to cause my opponents to alter their game much more than I do, often in obvious ways.
-VBCurtis

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the reason to have a kill?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because the fish like it. They want to gambool it up and are afraid to actually sit at the higher limit table. Good players also like it since some fish play fishier in kill pots.

[guidoguru]

Al's comments are spot-on. Also, Bremen makes a good point that good players like kill games because the fish do play fishier in them. My regular B&M game is 3/6 full kill(2 pots in a row to trigger), and it SIGNIFICANTLY increases my hourly rate. Not just because once in a while the stakes will be higher, but because when the stakes are higher the fish play even worse than usual.
This brings up an interesting question which i have asked on several forums before, but never gotten a good answer for: How should one calculate their hourly rate when playing in a kill game? If im playing 3/6 full kill, is the big bet $6 or $12?

[nightlyraver]

I've only played at a kill table once - I much prefer normal stakes. I was at the Aladin (awsome poker room IMO) and the only seat available was at a 3/6 Full Kill table whereby the pot was killed by simply winning 2 in a row regardless of pot size. People were not playing stupidly to create a kill, so strategy did not change really, but the rise in stakes was not convenient. Personally, I make the play that is the best in the long run (at least I try to :P). Thus, if the rest of the table is playing the same, I will to. However, there is a reason I'm playing 3/6 and not 6/12. The fact that I only had $200 is a pretty good reason. I hate taking the fluxuations with a stack that CERTAINLY cannot support it and I'm not gonna play uber-tight just because the stakes change. In such a spot, getting lucky or getting moved are the only two things that will make me happy.

[Xhad]

Assuming everyone plays exacly the same way when there is a kill, the formula for a big bet would be: (non-kill pots)/(total pots)*(normal big bet) + (kill pots)/(total pots)*(kill big bet)

The easy way to prove this is to assume that you're playing at two tables, one of which is a 3/6 game, and one of which is a 6/12 game, and you can only play one at a time. Clearly if the players are exactly the same, you should have the same BB/100 rate at one game as you do at the other, meaning your winrate at the big table is exactly twice your hourly rate at the little table. Then it's just a matter of how many hands you spend at each table vs. total hands played to determine what your winrate is.

For example, in a 3/6 full kill game where it averages one kill every 10 hands (I'm just pulling this number out of my arse), it would be (9/10)*$6 + (1/10)*$12, or $8.1

If the people play fishier when there is a kill, how much that adds to your EV is kind of an intangible so I don't know that any numbers would help. Also the issue that the kill gets his own big blind can also change things, however since you won't be playing as loosely as the rest of the table will in a kill game you're less likely to post a kill, meaning that factor doesn't hurt you either. It seems the real question here is how often do pots get killed? That's the important unknown, and in fact it likely varies from game to game (depending on how badly the people in question want to "defend their kill button")

[guidoguru]

thanks xhad, that was very well thought out. this would be the ideal way to calculate your bb/100 in that game, but if you're playin B&M and not online, it would be rather difficult since i typically do not keep a running tally of the # of hands played. /images/graemlins/smile.gif i use a spreadsheet that i made where i plug in the amount of hours played, the limits, and what my buyins/cashouts were. i realize that this is not nearly as good an estimate as a bb/100 calculation that can be done using hand histories, but it suits my needs. for now, i think i will just stick to my spreadsheet and call it 3/6 limit, but make a note in the game description that it was a kill game. any suggestions on a better way for me to calculate my hourly rate?

BTW - your comments about the "intangibles" of kill games were very true. in my regular game the pots are killed VERY often, and the killer almost always tries to defend his kill. talk about "playing the rush." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NotMitch]

I'll be at Morongo all weekend so this thread is very timely. So for a full kill game what do you generally buy in for? I'm thinkink 20 BB of the killed limits.

[guidoguru]

for 3/6 full kill i always buyin for $200, and have at least another $100 in my pocket. that's a little over 16 BBs at the killed limit. if you dont feel comfortable with only 16 bets, buy $250. some people give weird looks when i buy in for 2 racks at 3/6, but those are the same people that play weak/tight in the kill pots. BTW, i normally buyin for $200 at 3/6 w/o a kill, just cuz i like to LAG it up sometimes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PokerDork]

Perhaps the most important adjustment, is getting ready to here the words "I did (insert incorrect play) because it was a kill" also "I had to protect the leg-up." For the solid player the most difficult adjustment at a table with a kill is to keep the laughter to yourself.
Seriously, pick on those who play weak-tight, forget about stealing even more than normal (probably a non-issue at 3/6) because the kill blind will typically defend no matter what. Also, value bet the "because it was a kill"ers a lot.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing you have to remember is that if you're going to have to post a kill if you win a pot then the pot is essentially smaller by that ammount. So if you're on the end and with the nuts and someone bets into you, it isn't worth raising if that would cause it to be a kill.

Ok, that isn't going to happen very often. But you get the idea :0)

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the kill live? If so, it's got some equity and shouldn't be written off as "lost".

[mosch]

kills are live. Considering it lost is overcompensation. It's basically just a blind, but one in (usually) a less shitty position.

If you get the kill on your blind, you only have to post the kill.

Personally, I like the east coast kill better (pot size). The Foxwoods 5/10 games I've played in were often 10/20 games where I didn't have to pay the big blind my fair share of the time. West coast kill (2 in a row) is just a random trip to another limit... though it's a lot of fun to rake a 20bb pot from an 8/16 kill game that plays with $2 chips. (a little over a rack and a half of chips, from one pot)

[JihadOnTheRiver]

You, sir, have the greatest avatar that ever existed on this fine planet. nh

[jpumass11]

[ QUOTE ]
The Foxwoods 5/10 games I've played in were often 10/20 games where I didn't have to pay the big blind my fair share of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So at foxwoods the blinds dont post on a killed pot? What are the blinds at 5/10 anyways? Thanks.

[midas]

Mosch -

When you say you didn't often have to pay the big blind - was that because you won most of your $100+ of pots UTG?

Also, I've played the FW 5-10 quite often and tracked the number of kill hands. The only time it ever gets over 50% is on weekend nights when the table is full of loose aggressive types. I sat down this week at a 5-10 table that was lucky to see 5% of the pots killed over 2 hours.

[VBCurtis]

I think what Mosch means is that since so many pots were killed, it was effectively a 10/20 game with blinds at the usual 5/10 level ($2/$5 blinds). If you rarely get the kill, you're only paying $7 in blinds per orbit, but playing mostly $10/20 limit. Of course, when you do drag the big pot, you pay the "big blind" (kill post) for the 10/20 game, so it's not "always" missing the big blind.
-Curtis

[VBCurtis]

Calculating BB/100 in B&M isn't too tough, so long as the game is consistently full. Just keep track of how many times you pay the big blind, multiply by 8 or 8.5 for number of hands (depending how often someone sits out/missed blind/seat open/9 or 10 handed table-- just estimate). For the formula given above to calclate effective limit, keeping track of the number of killed pots shouldn't be too tough at most tables-- for example, in 4 hours last weekend at Morongo, I paid the BB almost exactly 3 times each hour, and there were 10 killed pots. Comes out to ~100 hands, 10% killed. There's probably 10-15% error in exact number of hands, but it's close enough to generate a BB/100 rate that approximates online stats.
-Curtis

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
Calculating BB/100 in B&M isn't too tough, so long as the game is consistently full. Just keep track of how many times you pay the big blind, multiply by 8 or 8.5 for number of hands (depending how often someone sits out/missed blind/seat open/9 or 10 handed table-- just estimate). For the formula given above to calclate effective limit, keeping track of the number of killed pots shouldn't be too tough at most tables-- for example, in 4 hours last weekend at Morongo, I paid the BB almost exactly 3 times each hour, and there were 10 killed pots. Comes out to ~100 hands, 10% killed. There's probably 10-15% error in exact number of hands, but it's close enough to generate a BB/100 rate that approximates online stats.
-Curtis

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you could just estimate about 30 hands/hr at B&M and adjust accordingly if you thought the dealers were quicker/slower than avg.