SSHE: calling raises PF

[Guthrie]

SSHE recommends calling a raise preflop with many hands in loose games, which seems to conflict with the advice to very rarely cold-call a raise. On the loose chart I count 88 times it says to call a raise. For example, A6s in late position would call a bet or a raise. So if one or more players has called the raise in front of me, and it's two bets to me, should I call as the chart says, or fold since it's a cold call?

Also, on page 86 it says "the guidelines for playing in raised pots apply only when the raise occurs before you act. If someone raises afterwards, call with any hand if it is one bet back to you." The loose chart says to call one bet with K6s in late position, but not two. So if I limped and it's raised behind, do I then call with any hand? Do the additional bets justify calling a raise with mediocre cards that I barely limped with in the first place?

If I call two bets cold with A6s in late position, and then it's raised back to me, do I then call that bet also?

Very confusing and contradictory. Can anyone elaborate? I'm using A6s and K6s only as examples. I'm looking for an explanation on the overall contradiction in the charts and advice on calling raises in general, not on these two specific hands.

[PokerGoblin]

Keep in mind this advice is for late position only.

Suited aces and kings play well in multiway pots where you are likely to get paid off well by bad opponents. Cold calling 2 is still a little sketchy, the probability of whether you will get paid off when you make your hand will determine if the play is correct or not. Personally, I have yet to play in a game where is was correct to cold call two from the button with k-6s...

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"the guidelines for playing in raised pots apply only when the raise occurs before you act. If someone raises afterwards, call with any hand if it is one bet back to you."

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Yes. Once you are in, you have to call the raise to see the flop. You will be getting at least 6 or 7 to 1 immediate odds, possibly even better if there are more people in the pot. For example, say you are in middle position after one limper with pocket 4's. You limp and one other player limps before the button raises. Say the SB folds and the BB and the other limper call. Are you going to fold for one small bet when there are 4 other opponents and 10.5 small bets (assuming the last limper calls) already in the pot? Of course not. But you know now, the the button has shown strength and your pair of fours alone will probably not be enough to win. So you proceed knowing you need to improve.

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If I call two bets cold with A6s in late position, and then it's raised back to me, do I then call that bet also?

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Yes, assuming you are faced with one or two bets once you are already in for two you have to try to catch something on the flop. Again, it's either flop strong or you're done with the hand.

Cold calling is almost never correct, doing so with speculative hands in multiway pots is about the only justification for it.

Later

PG

[Perseus]

The advice I took out of SSHE concerning cold calling was very helpful.

The authors say that you should hardly ever cold call two bets, and look for those who do regularly to be weak players.

The hand they use as an example that it's ok to call cold is with KQs in late position after it has been raised AND there are some callers. I also cold call occasionally with QJs or J10s but only if the raise has gotten multiple callers and the game is right to do so.

I would say out of a thousand hands I will cold call maybe twice.

That said, if you limp with a suited connector and it is raised behind you you almost always have to call one more bet. This is one reason to sit on the left of aggressive players

[Guthrie]

All good advice, but the chart specifically says to call two bets with pocket fours. What about a hand like KJ offsuit from late position. The chart says just call one bet and fold to two bets. I've been doing that and then folding if it comes back raised. Should I be calling the raise after limping, or just calling a raise after limping with a better speculative hand in a multiway pot?

I guess my confusion is the advice to always call one raise after I've limped in, which seems to be on top of what the chart says.

[MarkD]

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All good advice, but the chart specifically says to call two bets with pocket fours. What about a hand like KJ offsuit from late position. The chart says just call one bet and fold to two bets. I've been doing that and then folding if it comes back raised. Should I be calling the raise after limping, or just calling a raise after limping with a better speculative hand in a multiway pot?

I guess my confusion is the advice to always call one raise after I've limped in, which seems to be on top of what the chart says.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I don't have access to the chart but I'll try to shed some light.

1. EP raises and you have A6s on the button - that's an easy fold.
2. EP raises, four people cold call, you have A6s on the button - that's an easy call.
3. EP raises, everyone folds, and you have KQs on the button - this is a more difficult situation but I am not cold calling. I will be either three betting or folding depending on who the EP raiser is. I don't like to cold call here.
4. EP raises, two players cold call, you have KQs on the button. You can cold call here.
5. EP raises, you have 44 on the button, you fold here but calling can be ok if EP is a player who will regularly put a large number of bets in the pot post-flop.
6. EP raises, 1 player cold calls, you have 44 on the button. Again this is a close decision but if the blinds are a little looser than normal (and passive) you can begin to cold call here.
7. EP raises, 2 players cold call, you have 44 on the button. You can cold call here - it helps if the blinds are loose/passive as well.

Now, any situations where you have voluntarily entered the pot for 1 bet outside of the blinds and then the pot is raised and it is 1 more bet back to you - this is an automatic call for you every single time. If you ever have a hand where it is correct for you to fold when it is one more bet back to you then you were simply incorrect to play the hand initially. No hand that is playable for one bet is foldable after it is raised behind you and it is only one more bet for you to see the flop.

Clear things up?

ps. this is all off the top of my head so please don't nitpick it too much. I think this examples are quite clear though.

[Guthrie]

Yes, it does clear things up. I've been using the chart too literally, and as I learn the game it's becoming obvious that there's a lot of fudge factor, especially depending on preceding action when I'm in late position.

I've been getting stuck playing too many marginal hands early, and folding too many playable hands late when raised.

Thanks.

[MarkD]

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Yes, it does clear things up. I've been using the chart too literally, and as I learn the game it's becoming obvious that there's a lot of fudge factor, especially depending on preceding action when I'm in late position.

I've been getting stuck playing too many marginal hands early, and folding too many playable hands late when raised.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand charts are great while learning. Most of us have used them, but there is a definite point in your development as a player where you have to move beyond the chart and look at the situation and make the best play for that situation.

I believe Ed states this in SSH and he only provides the chart because it is somewhat necessary in a book like SSH. I certainly don't think he wanted people to play as if the chart was gospel.

There are many factors involved in pre-flop decisions and it appears you are ready to consider these factors and make your own adjustments to the chart for the situations you are in.

BTW, you shouldn't be cold calling a lot anyways, even in late position. I don't know what my CC percentage is but I know it's less than 2% from the button and drops substantially from every position inside of that.

[Matador225]

Miller recommends only cold-calling two bets (a bet and a raise) with AQs, AJs, or KQs.

[XxGodJrxX]

He only reccomends cold-calling with those in tight games. He reccommends cold-calling with small pairs or Axs in loose games in late position. If EP raises, and there are four or five cold-callers, you may be correct in cold-calling with Axs or 66 in late position, since you are getting the proper odds to call . I think it is rare to find this in mose online games, even in PTY .5/1. On the other hand, go to an indian casino and every player will cold-call an early position's raise, and it will be correct to call with 22 or K6s with those type of odds.

[DeeJ]

Yeah. In loose games I'm gonna call more (cold or otherwise) to see a flop with a hand which can play well in multiway pots (the suited connectors, the small pairs).

In tighter games, or with a hand that wants fewer opponents, raise or fold every time.

You don't mention the players behind you. By raising or calling you affect whether they will play their hands or not. Do you want them in? Usually the answer is no. You need the answer to be 'yes' to the extent that it's worth you losing the pot equity (of them not folding) against your extra investment with a raise - eg if you let the K8s BB in for one bet more when you hold QJs of the same suit, was it wise to cold call? /images/graemlins/grin.gif