I hate you AT

[NUReedy]

No hand has given me as much trouble as AT in the incredibly soft 3/6 games I play in at my local casinos. I try to play them the most correctly but am constantly unsure as to what I need to do. Here is a hand that left me dumbfounded (for many reasons) which should become apparent. Help me with how I should have played this hand and other AT hands in the future. Little information on this hand for the players (but I want some of this discussion to be hypothetical for an average situation).
Tattoo-guy is an idiot. Plays 90% of his hands, takes them all too far and is overly aggressive.
Old Guy-Fairly straightward, way too loose. Will try and steal pots if he thinks no one has anything.
Other guy-bad, nothing really more.
Hero-no real image. I am on the tail end of a really bad day, where I have won two pots (one chopped after some guys bad A split my better one), and haven't been making any hand better than top pair. I only have $18 (3BB) left going into this hand, and have decided not to buy in for more and let things fall as they may.

The stack sizes in this hand make it fairly interesting. I'll post my thought process (which I thought was decent) after a little bit.

ACTION:
Preflop: 5 limpers to hero in BB who checks with A /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif.
Flop: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (This is the spot I always hate with AT, OOP and lots of people in the pot).
Hero checks and is checked to Old Guy who bets. Folds to Hero who calls (anyone raise here). Other Guy in EP check-raises all-in for $6. Tattoo guy and old guy call (he is all in too) as does Hero.

This is one unique aspect to the hand. The two people I believe may have a better hand are all in, and it is only me and tattooed idiot left. Keep in mind I have $9 left.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
(2 Players all-in). Hero Checks. Tattoo bets, Hero puts last $9 in and tattoo calls.

River: J /images/graemlins/club.gif.

How should this hand have been played?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind I have $9 left.


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Clarkmeister]

Super duper easy raise preflop.

[JinX11]

I raise ATs pre-flop out of the blinds with 5 limpers approximately 100% of the time. Build a big pot - you know you want to.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
ACTION:
Preflop: 5 limpers to hero in BB who checks with A /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif.


[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot to raise.

[krimson]

I would raise pre-flop. ATs will play nicely in a multi-way pot like this. Push our equity.

You don't give seat positions here, so analyzing the post flop play is very difficult.

On the flop we probably have the best hand. Since you mentioned two players almost always bet when checked too, I would try and c/r off them given they are in the later positions. This is a board where we can get people to fold to 2 bets before they pick up a bigger draw.

Lead the turn, we are still probably ahead, and just took the lead over hands like A5.

I think your out of chips after this lead, so hold your breath for a good river.

[pudley4]

1 - Don't ever get down to just 3BB
2 - Raise preflop

[Delta00]

Ok, I get the pre-flop raise, but lets just say that one of the limpers folds and the rest call. How tentative are we on the flop with the ace flop, and people calling a pre-flop raise? Do you bet it out from first position? Check/call? Check raise? I'm a little stuck in these situations.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
No hand has given me as much trouble as AT in the incredibly soft 3/6 games I play in at my local casinos. I try to play them the most correctly but am constantly unsure as to what I need to do. Here is a hand that left me dumbfounded (for many reasons) which should become apparent. Help me with how I should have played this hand and other AT hands in the future. Little information on this hand for the players (but I want some of this discussion to be hypothetical for an average situation).
Tattoo-guy is an idiot. Plays 90% of his hands, takes them all too far and is overly aggressive.
Old Guy-Fairly straightward, way too loose. Will try and steal pots if he thinks no one has anything.
Other guy-bad, nothing really more.
Hero-no real image. I am on the tail end of a really bad day, where I have won two pots (one chopped after some guys bad A split my better one), and haven't been making any hand better than top pair. I only have $18 (3BB) left going into this hand, and have decided not to buy in for more and let things fall as they may.

The stack sizes in this hand make it fairly interesting. I'll post my thought process (which I thought was decent) after a little bit.

ACTION:
Preflop: 5 limpers to hero in BB who checks with A /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif.
Flop: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (This is the spot I always hate with AT, OOP and lots of people in the pot).
Hero checks and is checked to Old Guy who bets. Folds to Hero who calls (anyone raise here). Other Guy in EP check-raises all-in for $6. Tattoo guy and old guy call (he is all in too) as does Hero.

This is one unique aspect to the hand. The two people I believe may have a better hand are all in, and it is only me and tattooed idiot left. Keep in mind I have $9 left.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
(2 Players all-in). Hero Checks. Tattoo bets, Hero puts last $9 in and tattoo calls.

River: J /images/graemlins/club.gif.

How should this hand have been played?

[/ QUOTE ]

1)raise preflop, has anyone said that?
2)only 3BBs left? either rebuy or get up and leave before your blind. i hope we don't have a stop-loss plan going on here, that's a big no no.
3)i c/r the flop.
4)no turn decision as you are all-in if you had 6BB including the blind. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I get the pre-flop raise, but lets just say that one of the limpers folds and the rest call. How tentative are we on the flop with the ace flop, and people calling a pre-flop raise? Do you bet it out from first position? Check/call? Check raise? I'm a little stuck in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet. You have top pair decent kicker against people who didn't like their own hands enough to raise preflop.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I get the pre-flop raise, but lets just say that one of the limpers folds and the rest call. How tentative are we on the flop with the ace flop, and people calling a pre-flop raise? Do you bet it out from first position? Check/call? Check raise? I'm a little stuck in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your really undervaluing your flop situation, we probably have the best hand here. Wouldn't someone raise pre-flop with AJ+? With that in mind leading and c/r'ing are the options. This table sounded fairly aggressive so I would probably c/r it.

[Paxosmotic]

Reload pre-preflop. Since you didn't, there is nothing you can do to keep from going all-in on this hand. I'll ignore preflop and say that you MUST raise the bet on the flop to protect your hand. Not raising preflop was a mistake, calling on the flop is a disaster.

[shant]

Raise preflop. Bet the flop when you do.

Since you didn't, check-raise the flop when the old guy who "tries to pick up pots" bets.

Don't play with only 3BB.

SIMPLE! A10 should be dropped preflop at a 3/6 table! the tables to loose to count pair values, and Aj and up surely will play and dominate you. If you raise, ur only making the bad hands fold (a8, A4) Ditch the a10 preflop and your hourly expected rate will almost surely increase!
hope i could help,
CDL

larmorec@msu.edu

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
SIMPLE! A10 should be dropped preflop at a 3/6 table! the tables to loose to count pair values, and Aj and up surely will play and dominate you. If you raise, ur only making the bad hands fold (a8, A4) Ditch the a10 preflop and your hourly expected rate will almost surely increase!
hope i could help,
CDL

larmorec@msu.edu

[/ QUOTE ]
This is terrible, awful, and inexcusable advice. Please go to Micros as quickly as possible.

[NUReedy]

thanks for the comments. I have some questions/thoughts I would like to bring up later, but have to go. Check this thread later.

[CheckRaise]

[ QUOTE ]
SIMPLE! A10 should be dropped preflop at a 3/6 table! the tables to loose to count pair values, and Aj and up surely will play and dominate you. If you raise, ur only making the bad hands fold (a8, A4) Ditch the a10 preflop and your hourly expected rate will almost surely increase!
hope i could help,
CDL

larmorec@msu.edu

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that someone wouldn't have raised AJ, AQ etc pf if they had it?

[oreogod]

Raise preflop, bet the flop. The way u played it u absolutly have to CR the old guy.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SIMPLE! A10 should be dropped preflop at a 3/6 table! the tables to loose to count pair values, and Aj and up surely will play and dominate you. If you raise, ur only making the bad hands fold (a8, A4) Ditch the a10 preflop and your hourly expected rate will almost surely increase!
hope i could help,
CDL

larmorec@msu.edu

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that someone wouldn't have raised AJ, AQ etc pf if they had it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a gimmick account? Because, seriously, the advice is so over the top bad, it almost has to be faked.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SIMPLE! A10 should be dropped preflop at a 3/6 table! the tables to loose to count pair values, and Aj and up surely will play and dominate you. If you raise, ur only making the bad hands fold (a8, A4) Ditch the a10 preflop and your hourly expected rate will almost surely increase!
hope i could help,
CDL

larmorec@msu.edu

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that someone wouldn't have raised AJ, AQ etc pf if they had it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are forgetting this is B&M. I'm sure different casino's have different levels of aggression. If you find yourself at a 5/10 or lower game at the Taj in AC there are many a game where KK and worse are limped. Rarely do you see a PF 3-bet with AA. Also, I'm not a 2/4 player, but when 3/6 on Party went 6max I first opted to go to 2/4 to get a similar game to what I was used to and still play witin my bankroll comfortably. Again I was quite surprised at the premium hands being limped by a good 70% of the tables. It made me aware how bad these players actually are, but if you don't adjust your game (aggression levels, etc.)it could cost you. Hands like AJ and AT could easily be crushed without you knowing it or could just as easily have a field of coldcallers crushed.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Please go to Micros as quickly as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw his other post - there is enough clutter in the Micros already, don't confuse them... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jordanx]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think that someone wouldn't have raised AJ, AQ etc pf if they had it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it depends on the player. A lot of people don't raise these hands pre-flop. Doesn't matter though, you should still raise ATs w/ 5 limpers on the BB.

The fact is, you're not likely dominated here, although you could be. ATs is a solid hand, makes the nut flush and when you make a straight w/ both cards it is the nut straight. The ten gives you a decent kicker that will get paid off by A9 and down.

Yeah, your not gonna win every time here and certainly not more than w/ AK but raising here is definitely a good bet.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

I see why A10 gives you trouble when you play it like that.

~ Tilts

[PuertoKid]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I get the pre-flop raise, but lets just say that one of the limpers folds and the rest call. How tentative are we on the flop with the ace flop, and people calling a pre-flop raise? Do you bet it out from first position? Check/call? Check raise? I'm a little stuck in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, none of the limpers will fold to your raise. You are raising for value. You are not tentative on the flop. You lead out.

[SavageMiser]

Just want to reiterate that you never, ever play with such a short stack. Unless you like kicking yourself for shortchanging the best hand.

[langley11]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I didnt correctly read the original question. A10 in the BB, I would call, you can try to raise to increase pot equity but I have played against several players who limp on aj or a10 themselves and everyone will clearly call the raise at this level. When the flop comes with the ace, you should bet to try to protect your hand.
cdl

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that someone wouldn't have raised AJ, AQ etc pf if they had it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I played a 10/20 at the MGM a few weeks ago, where I saw not one, but TWO people fail to raise AA preflop (one out of the SB, another who cold called after a raiser and another cold caller).

Over the course of a week I also saw at least half a dozen AK go unraised preflop.

This isn't a reason to play an AT weakly when you flop an ace. But you do have to be aware that a lot of B&M players play like little girls preflop.

[Nytecaster]

We can all agree or disagree on the preflop raise from the Big Blind. Multiway gives you the luxury of picking one or the other depending on your image and the psychology of those at the table. If you never raise from BB except with huge hands (or you give that impression), then I would raise here for sure. If they are loose players that don't fold much after seeing the flop bet, I would probably just call and go for the check raise since the old guy is kind of agressive.

Whatever the preflop scenario, you need to establish the lead on the flop to get the best of this hand, whether that is best done by betting or check/raising is depending on what you think the other players may do.

[Chuckles1248]

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt correctly read the original question. A10 in the BB, I would call, you can try to raise to increase pot equity but I have played against several players who limp on aj or a10 themselves and everyone will clearly call the raise at this level. When the flop comes with the ace, you should bet to try to protect your hand.
cdl

[/ QUOTE ]

What??? No.

Preflop you're raising because you likely have the best hand, and you definitely have equity. Who cares if these people would limp-call with AQ or AJ, they'll also do it with A9, A8, Kx, and a crapload of hands, some of them almost any 2. Saying you shouldn't raise here is being afraid of the 2 or 3 hands that beat you when someone randomly doesn't raise with them, while completely ignoring the ridiculous amounts of equity you get from worse hands calling you.

After you flop an A, you're not betting to protect your hand, as nobody is folding...you're betting for value.

[clownshoes]

Raising PF and betting the flop makes things much easier for you