Misplayed TT

This was the hand. No reads on the table yet.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

At this point I think I may be behind an overpair.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

When UTG bets into me after being raised the previous round, I am really worried. I think he may have flopped two pair or something to be able to bet into a raiser and re-raiser. So I fold here.

River: (13.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

And then I see the results. Puke!:) How could I have played this hand differently
Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has 7h Ah (two pair, sevens and twos).
Button has 9h 9s (two pair, nines and twos).
Outcome: Button wins 15.75 BB. </font>

[Cumulonimbus]

This would be easier with reads. It looks like UTG is bluff-representing that 2, so I wouldn't worry about him too much. I'd actually consider calling down with reads of aggressiveness by the PFR. He could have 99 and 88 too, or maybe a flush draw or two high cards.

I agree. Waiting on my product key(just bought pokertracker). It can't get here soon enough!

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Your right, it was badly played. Cap preflop, cap the flop, you sucked out on two pair on the turn so raise again. *only* then can you fold your tens if you get 3 bet.

Later,
MarkV.

[Piiop]

Do not post the results to the hand because they will skew the responses that you get.

Also, you said "I think he may have flopped two pair or something to be able to bet into a raiser and re-raiser. So I fold here."

If UTG limped with 76 and flopped two pair, you're ahead of him on the turn. I understand that you were still stuck between him and the button and that's a tough spot, but it's very unlikely that he has a hand that beats you. What would he limp UTG with and bet the flop that improved on the turn? 62?

Your only concern in the hand is the button. You may want to cap the flop here. Since you have no reads it's hard to say, but the button might be an aggressive player capable of 3-betting 88/99 or AK/AQ (especially if it's spades). Since you didn't cap the flop, a turn raise would be good for putting pressure on overcards. However, I can't really fault you for your play since there aren't many players at 2/4 that are that aggressive. You just use the info you gained in this hand next time.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Your right, it was badly played. Cap preflop, cap the flop, you sucked out on two pair on the turn so raise again. *only* then can you fold your tens if you get 3 bet.

Later,
MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capping preflop and capping the flop would be super spew w/o a read.

I call down at the turn, unless its 2 to me

[Petteri]

Without reads you are in really bad spot after UTG bets turn. Stuck between two raisers folding is considerable option. I pretty seldom see this aggressive play in Party 2/4 $ with marginal hands.

I do not think you made really bad play. It is close decision between folding and calling down. Against solid players I would have folded. Against donks I would have called down.

As long as I have no reads I consider every player as solid.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Your right, it was badly played. Cap preflop, cap the flop, you sucked out on two pair on the turn so raise again. *only* then can you fold your tens if you get 3 bet.

Later,
MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

your advice is terrible.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
Without reads you are in really bad spot after UTG bets turn. Stuck between two raisers folding is considerable option. I pretty seldom see this aggressive play in Party 2/4 $ with marginal hands.

I do not think you made really bad play. It is close decision between folding and calling down. Against solid players I would have folded. Against donks I would have called down.

As long as I have no reads I consider every player as solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty much my thoughts.

i consider everybody as slightly loose passive before having reads (what leads to the same conclusion in this situation).

[MVicuna]

Hi,

TT is a capping hand preflop because there are only *4* hands better then it preflop. There are no monsters under the bed.

EVEN if you get raised on the flop, there quiet a few hands that will raise there due to it being a 7 high flop AND it having a two flush on it.

And if this pot is to big to not put in two more BB to see a showdown, its worth the extra BB to raise the turn to see what LP guy does because if you just call you could be whipsawed or raised anyways and have to pay the 3BB to see a showdown everyone seems so commited too.

Raise the turn and fold if its 3 bet. Just calling the turn bet is weak and gives to many hands cheap draws. Here is an explination as to why.

Anyhand that raises your 3 bet has you beat and would have raised you anyways if you'd just called and then they would have bet the river. So you pay 3BB to see a showdown and lose.

Yes, better hands will call your turn raise and then call your river bet, but if there is *any* chance of getting JJ/TT/AK/AQ to fold the turn you *must* take it. Getting AK/AQ to fold the turn in this huge pot is a huge win as is making them pay 2BB to see a river.

You bet then bet river. Yes, TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA that wussed out may still call, but worse hands will call, its 2/4 after all, and a better hand may fold. Its unlikely an over pair to your ten folds, but If you cap preflop/flop/raise the turn/bet the river/ There is a remote chance they fold. And you PAY the same amount to see a showdown while extracting more from the worse hands.

Later,
MarkV.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
TT is a not capping hand preflop against 3 opponents because there are *4* hands that dominate it and another 90-some combinations that it's even money to preflop all of which are about the only hands that fit into an unknown, PF 3-bettor's range.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP.

[ QUOTE ]
if there is *any* chance of getting JJ/TT/AK/AQ to fold the turn you *must* take it.

[/ QUOTE ]
There isn't any chance of folding a top pair on the turn. They all just made two pair and are calling down or raising (as Hero should have).

[thejameser]

no reads + no overcards = calldown for me. you're giving too much away folding in this situation to a couple of unknowns. UTG didn't cap the flop and then leads the turn obviously trying to represent a boat or 2 i think. you speculate too much without reads, its kind of weak thinking, really. oh, and i would have capped PF. call the flop and then go to check/call safe-mode on the turn. i would have to see a showdown given the board and the unknown opposition.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (11.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.
When UTG bets into me after being raised the previous round, I am really worried. I think he may have flopped two pair

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a great reason to raise - you just turned 2-pair!

UTG - a lot more likely to have flopped top-pair, or two-pair with 76. He probably didn't limp 72/62 UTG and if he did he would've probably gone for the checkraise on the turn. Players that limp 72/62 UTG don't think to lead the turn in hopes of 3-betting when they catch the boat - they think check-raise

Button - maybe on an over pair - maybe not. Put some pressure on him. Unless he's a maniac, or has a huge hand, another raise from you will probably slow him down. A call wouldn't be horrible either because he may already be in call-down mode against UTG's turn lead.

Personally - I think I'm taking an overpair to showdown most of the time - especially at 2/4. I could find a fold against an player I had a read on but, not often against an unknown. If he turns over AA/KK at showdown then so be it. That's poker. However - I think at 2/4 most players are going into call-down mode with big pairs when you raise the board pairing the turn.

It's true that raising the turn may cost you an extra bet to lose at showdown - but, it also gains you extra bets from up to two players when you're ahead and a small percentage of the time will fold a hand that might have won on the river. I'd say on the turn raising &gt;&gt; calling &gt;&gt; folding - and I'm planning on showing down.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
He probably didn't limp 72/62 UTG and if he did he would've probably gone for the checkraise on the turn. Players that limp 72/62 UTG don't think to lead the turn in hopes of 3-betting when they catch the boat - they think check-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone playing those hands can't be thinking too much. oh, and i could see a turn raise as well. what if you are 3bet?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
i could see a turn raise as well. what if you are 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm calling and probably calling one on the river (possibly not overcalling if UTG calls).

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
No reads on the table yet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding unless action gets crazy on the turn.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Your right, it was badly played. Cap preflop, cap the flop, you sucked out on two pair on the turn so raise again. *only* then can you fold your tens if you get 3 bet.

Later,
MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capping preflop and capping the flop would be super spew w/o a read.

I call down at the turn, unless its 2 to me

[/ QUOTE ]


This is not true. I cap the flop every time with JJ here, and since he has 2 opponents, he can cap with TT.

[krimson]

Preflop and flop play are good. I would call down turn, the button will probably back off and just call down for the same reason you folded. We still have a big hand here and being raised from behind wouldn't be horrid either, i'd want to show this down except maybe if it gets raised and reraised back to you on the turn.

[mdob]

I don't like it. A flop three-bet could easily mean A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K/Q/J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. His pocket pair range can't go much lower than 99, but he could easily think that's best since we called his three-bet pre-flop. This pot's big enough so that the chance we're best is enough to keep us going. I think we need to raise the turn to charge a flush draw as much as possible and let him make a terrible call if he has a lower pair. If he's got a bigger pocket pair, we're screwed, of course, but so be it.

[MVicuna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if there is *any* chance of getting JJ/TT/AK/AQ to fold the turn you *must* take it.

[/ QUOTE ]
There isn't any chance of folding a top pair on the turn. They all just made two pair and are calling down or raising (as Hero should have).

[/ QUOTE ]

You know your advice was *exactly* the same in the post you made in this same thread and you listed this EXACT same reason.

Also, with two EP limpers its likely they hold some of the reraisers over cards in their hands making it less likely they have them two of them or will hit them on the flop. So your equity in this hand stays at over 50% while two over cards hands shrink to 30% with just 1 out gone.

So when your dominated your cap loses 0.8SB of EV and when your ahead your cap gains 2SB of EV. Not capping TT preflop is wrong with 3 opponents unless we are 100% certain then have an over pair.

So let me restate it clearly. TT is a 50% favorite to win the pot with *three* opponents as its likely the one of their over cards is in some elses hand given two EP limpers.

I hope this is clear, and don't muddy the water saying the EP limpers don't have to have the re-raisers outs, its more likely they do then not.

Later,
MarkV.

[callmedonnie]

Tough hand at a new table. When UTG goes from cold calling 3 bets on PF and on the flop, to leading out turn I'm annoyed. I may want to fold there as well, especially because of you position.

It might be worth a call to see if button raises the turn. If not, you may get a relatively cheap showdown. If so, you can call for a bet on turn, and fold for two.

Again, at a new table w/out reads it is hard to know whether to lean towards calling down or folding (or raising for that matter). What you should do is buy Playerview also. Load your tables for 20-30 minutes before playing. Not only will it help you sit at more profitable tables, it will makes decisions like this much easier.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
So let me restate it clearly. TT is a 50% favorite to win the pot with *three* opponents

[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong. TT is not a 50% favorite against 3 other unkown players - particularly when one of those players could 3-bet 2 limpers and a raiser.

[ QUOTE ]
...its likely the one of their over cards is in some elses hand given two EP limpers... ...don't muddy the water saying the EP limpers don't have to have the re-raisers outs, its more likely they do then not.

[/ QUOTE ]
They don't. Why can't they be limping small pocket pairs? or suited connectors? This is Party 2/4. EP &lt;&gt; group 1 hands. But an unkown PF 3-bettor certainly has a pretty well defined range.

[BigEndian]

Blue, don't let this hand discourage you. It shows that you are doing a great job paying attention to what the action tells you.

Unfortunately, with a big pot, you should be calling this down and mucking only after you are shown the over pair or better. There are too many horrible players playing online to fold hands like this.

Keep it up though, this kind of hand reading is very important to gaining additional bets and saving bets when the opportunities arise (especially in live games when the betting is generally a little more sane).

- Jim

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (13.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.


Turn: (11.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

When UTG bets into me after being raised the previous round, I am really worried. I think he may have flopped two pair or something to be able to bet into a raiser and re-raiser. So I fold here.



[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't looked at the results, but my guess is that UTG is trying to represnet a 2. There is no way he has a two (ok not no way, but rarely I would say) A turned 2 would be more apt to CR the aggressive Flop for multiple bets.

Since we have connectors on the board, I'd say you need to up the possiblity that someone had flopped two pair 67, which you obviously caught up with.

You still may be behind the button, representing a top tier hand, but he could just as easily have 99 or worse, as well as naked overcards.

Call down.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Make up your mind. So only preflop 3 betters have predefined ranges of hands but limpers are playing any random two regardless of position?

This is wrong thinking and is you just really trying to justify your point.

It has been over a year since I played 2/4 but in my recent excursions trying to make 10k hands in 4 days I have seen the same idiotic play I saw last time. Limp reraising UTG with 88, Over limping and then raising with K7s.

But most of the time its people limping in with big cards in EP and people over limping in LP with the implied odds hands.

Later,
MarkV.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Make up your mind. So only preflop 3 betters have predefined ranges of hands but limpers are playing any random two regardless of position?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's right. I'm not sure why you think that this concept is so odd? Obviously there are many weak, loose passive player who will limp with a wide range of hands (I never said random) and this same type of player will have a fairly well-defined range of hands when they 3-bet. This seems to me like pretty standard "gap-concept" thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
It has been over a year since I played 2/4 but in my recent excursions trying to make 10k hands in 4 days I have seen the same idiotic play I saw last time.Limp reraising UTG with 88, Over limping and then raising with K7s... ...But most of the time its people limping in with big cards in EP and people over limping in LP with the implied odds hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
If there is one of us who can't make up their mind - it would be YOU sir...

First you say that the 2/4 players are idiots. Then you conclude that their typical style of play is fairly close to correct strategy of tight up front, loose in the back?!? I'm confused?!? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[MrDannimal]

The range of limpable hands UTG is wide enough that you can't just off-handedly say "UTG must have 1 of the LP's overcard outs".

It's also not unreasonable to say that the range of hands of a PF 3-bet is narrower and easier to identify than that of a UTG limper. ESPECIALLY with no reads.

UTG could be holding A2s, A6s or A7s (and saying to himself "Hey, I've got 2 pair!"), or two diamonds (QJ-98 or any combination in between, or some Kx combination too). He bet the flop, so he could have two spades as well.

LP probably has a big pair or big suited overcards. We don't know he's just going to flat call the UTG turn bet when we fold, but the PF and Flop 3 bets make me lean towards an overpair, but also overcard spades. The flat call on the turn pushes me towards the spades.

Either way, there are many UTG hands that don't take up one of LPs outs. What you're talking about here doesn't even really fit. Nobody over-limped in LP, they three bet. I don't even think "most of the time" it's big cards limping in EP. On top of that, your claim is in conflict with your earlier "they're sharing outs" claim, because a LP implied odds hand is less likely to share an out with big cars limped form EP.

I really think we're ahead of UTG here, but with LP behind having 3 bet me each time I'm wary of a raise becuse I can easily be way behind. I'd call down without a read, but I wouldn't hate a turn raise. I don't know what I'd do to a 3-bet (you'd be getting 10:1 back to you assuming UTG calls, so I think I'd call, but it'd be close).

[MVicuna]

Hi,

People's 3 betting raising standards are all over place even for your loose passive 2/4 player. Putting them on a range of 6 hands is incorrect when they 3 bet you. Which is what that statement said, notice how each of the hands I listed delt with getting 3 bet???

There are not very many 40+ VPIP players at 2/4. Those are the players who usually are playing the real bad cards in EP. But your mid 30's player is going to have pretty much what you think they have given their position.

Given that 2/4 is made up of mostly ~30 vpip players, They will be limping in EP with big cards more then small suited connectors.

Later,
MarkV.

you didnt play aggressively enough, you have so many bets in the pot, shoulda called river. thats 1 mistake, other mistake is ur fear. reraise his raise instead of being afraid of 2 pair, if he rereraises be scared but u will know his hand then, a feeler bet. woulda saved u the whole pot!!!!!!
Also think from their perspective, ragged flop, that guy raised, im putting him on AK, he didnt hit, now hes repping something real big so im gonna outplay him on this hand!
hope i could help
chris larmore
larmorec@msu.edu

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
People's 3 betting raising standards are all over place even for your loose passive 2/4 player. Putting them on a range of 6 hands is incorrect when they 3 bet you. Which is what that statement said, notice how each of the hands I listed delt with getting 3 bet???
There are not very many 40+ VPIP players at 2/4. Those are the players who usually are playing the real bad cards in EP. But your mid 30's player is going to have pretty much what you think they have given their position.
Given that 2/4 is made up of mostly ~30 vpip players, They will be limping in EP with big cards more then small suited connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]
There isn't one word or truth in anything you said here.

Hi,
Wanted to thank everyone for the great advice. I realize that I still have a lot to learn. Actually if I was *really* paying attention(it was around 3:00am i think, I should stop playing at these times when i'm pretty tired) I would have realized that the 2 on the turn actually helped me(if UTG had 2 pair 67). Should have called down.

Also plan to equip myself better. Already have Pokertracker and somebody mentioned Playerview.

Thanks again.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

There were two EP limpers, which is why there is a good chance our three bettor's outs may be dead and lowering the chances he has a big over pair.

Raising the flop after not capping preflop seems to conflict with not capping. If we were so sure we were burried to his 3bet why are we all of a sudden raising with only two outs and then calling yet another 3 bet?

And then crunches advice to Raise the turn when he's so afraid to being dominated by an over pair conflicts with the preflop advice of not capping and not capping the flop.

You two's advice is all over the place. TT is to weak to cap with, but its strong enough to raise into the preflop 3 bettor AND THEN CALL a 3 bet And spend 2 more BB calling it down. That is a waste of 3.5BB in which you two are so positive TT is behind you don't want to cap preflop.

The OP played the hand better then you two in that he actually put him on a range of hands and stuck with it and folded the turn unimproved as he should have done if his hand isn't strong enough to cap.

Later,
MarkV.

[MVicuna]

From last night from a 38/1.4 player over the course of about 100 hands.

This is just the one I can think of right off the top of my head. I could find *several* of these nonsense 3 bets from loose passive players over the span of any 1000 hands.

This is PP hand # 2393351856 since obviously nothing I say is true or from 2 years of playing HE on party.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop:
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (13.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds.

River: (15.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

[crunchy1]

This is a limp-reraise - much different than what we were looking at in this hand. Is the 1.4 PFR% or AF?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
You two's advice is all over the place.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Your misinterpretations of what I'm saying and false representations/reiterations of what I've posted are all over the place.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Thats VPIP of 38 PFR of 1.3. So he's your text book case for loose passive preflop 2/4 player.

We were discussing whacky inappropriate 3 bets with weak hands by loose passive 2/4 players where its obvious they are either slightly ahead/behind or a big dog.

They are not as predictable and passive as everyone thinks, thus TT is usually leaving money on the table, because all you have to do is add in one extra unpaired overcard to their 3 betting standards or that odd 1:10 time they just get jiggy with it and your ahead more then your behind.

I find quiet a few hands where these guys get out of line.

Later,
MarkV.