10/10 in a raised Pot from BB $2/$4 Blinds

[NickPoker]

Full Tilt Poker 6-Max $2-4 Blinds

Hero in BB with $450 is dealt 10/10
UG ($250) Limps
C/o ($450) raises pot to $18
Hero calls, UG folds pot $42

Flop 224r
Hero checks, c/o bets $26, hero raises to $52, c/o calls
Turn 4
Hero checks, c/o checks
River 8
Hero checks, c/o bets pot of $146

Call or fold?
Please give me feedback on every street, I don't think I played this one well. The only thing about the game I can tell you is about 2/3 pots were raised p/f, don't no much about villain. He hasn't done anything out of the ordinary for the first 30 minutes I have played with him.

[NickPoker]

I thought I would run this by one more time, since I posted it at night (maybe it's just not interesting, if so I apoligize).

My questions here are:
1. Should I even get involved with the hand OOP considering the raise, and if so should I dump it if I don't hit the set? SHould I re-raise for information p/f?
2. How do you play it when undercards hit the flop? I didn't really know how to play it when the undercards came up because he either missed with big overcards or has me drawing thin with his overpair. In hindsight I don't like my minirase, especially considering the way I played the turn.
3. Should I lead the turn big to try to represent KK or AA?
4. After the c/o's check on the turn and large bet on the river, what do you think the villain's range of hand is (without a read)?

[amoeba]

preflop is fine.

on the flop, either checkraise a bit more or lead out.

I don't like check minraise.

lead the turn as he can't have the 4 or 2 and you might fold out a better hand, get cheaper showdown.

I fold preflop. The problem with this type of hand is that you just don't know how to play it, unless you flop a set which of course you can't count on. If any overcard comes up, which is about half the time on the flop, you have to let it go. And if he has anykind of pair, you're dead. Even if he does have A-K, if he makes a continuation bet on a flop of three rags, what do you do? You just don't know, right? Keep yourself out of a difficult position and fold preflop. The only way to call is if you're hoping to flop a set and willing to release tens even with three rags on the flop. I would also say that he probably checked the turn hoping for a check raise which you didn't fall for. I fold the river, I'm betting he has at least a bigger pair than yours. He probably didn't call your flop raise with just A-K.

[amoeba]

that is incredibly weak tight and you'll get run over alot playing this way.

[theben]

CR min = sin against poker

[nuSFwck]

Folding 10-10 pre in a loose 6max game is incredibley weak, especially to a LP raiser, IMO. I would lead for $30-$40 on the flop and fold to a raise 90% of the time and c/r to around $75 10% of the time. I don't think check/calling is an option. Remember, villian's in LP and is likely raising with a lot less than JJ-AA.

My line is to pot the flop and fold to a raise.

[NickPoker]

I like this line, what do you do on the turn if you are smooth called?

[amoeba]

I know its not addressed to me but on this particular turn, I like betting again.

on a blank turn, I like a check.

[kingofswing]

I like the line too. However, if you put a play on the guy on the flop and show aggression and he still calls, you have to give him credit for a hand. He's likely sitting there wondering what you have that you called a raise and led out the flop. That would scare an AK to be much more cautious unless he's really aggressive. If he bets turn, he's likely got more than TT. If he's got AK, you've got to give it up and give him credit because you are OOP and his agressiveness is too much.

With mid pairs like that gameplan should be to call a raise. If the flop is lower than your pair, bet out or c/r, and if called, be prepared to let go on turn or river.

[Sadat X]

I would raise this preflop, folding to big re-raise. Calling is also an option, maybe even better here, depending on the aggressiveness of your opponent.

Against an aggressive opponent I would call PF, analyze the texture of the board and make a move. In this case I'd be tempted to check-call the flop and lead out half the pot or CR the turn.

Against a typical passive opponent, I put in a raise PF (about $50) and fold to a big re-raise.

[Allinlife]

checkminraise was disgusting.

given how you played it, this is a must call.

I 3bet this preflop and lead any flop 1/2~to fullpot depending on flop texture.

playing TT OOP sucks, more so when you check-fold to pfr when overcards flop.

[Sadat X]

As to the question of call or fold, I think I'd have to suck it up and make the call. I'd venture to say your hand is good a little more than 1/3 of the time.

This would be a very sneaky way for him to play a big pair, checking it through on the turn. You invited him to make a play on the pot and I think if you're gonna check this river, you have to be looking to call his bet on the end.

[nuSFwck]

If he calls my flop bet, I would most likely bet the turn. I would certainly not bet as aggressively as on the flop, maybe something like 1/2 the pot? I think checking it to him on the turn gives him a golden opportunity to take the pot away from you. In most cases, if he's got a broadway pair he's going to raise the flop to see where he's at, right? At the very least, he's raising the turn if he's got a big one, IMO.

If you bet again on the turn, something around 1/3-1/2 the pot- and get raised, you'll know you're beaten. If he smoothcalls again, I still bet the river. Bad idea?

Someone mentioned reraising this preflop, which I think is a good idea if it's going to be HU. The fact that UTG limped would keep me from raising here, but if it was folded to the open-raiser, I would reraise.

[NickPoker]

I called, even though I had the feeling I was beat. The c/o's check on the turn showed me enough weakness that I thought had to call because as someone said I am probably ahead enough of the time.

The c/o had QQ, and took the pot down.

The reason I check miniraised the flop was to attempt to run out AK, or at least slow down an overpair. I knew this was a bad play right after I did it. In hindsight I think I should have lead out on the flop, and folded to a raise. With the c/r line that I took I should have made a large bet on the turn, there is a reasonable chance the villain could have folded. Oh well live and learn. This discussion was very helpful to me, thanks.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I don't like the flop. You are WA/WB. Why do you c/r? I would prefer c/c, lead turn.

[unlucky513]

i call. you played this hand very weak and i would make the same bet that CO made w/ A high. looks like AKs or AQs to me... but i play bad.

edit: just read the results, told ya i play bad. you both played this hand weak.

[NickPoker]

I agree the c/r was bad, I have stated that several times. Your line isn't bad though, my guess is that he would have either smooth called or raised my turn bet. Folding to a raise would be easy, but if just smooth calls, I'm still in a pretty bad situation on the river.

[TheWorstPlayer]

No youre not: c/f.

I probably would have bet on the turn after he checked. He just called your reraise on the flop.He Could have had over cards and wanted to test the waters, you just reraised the min., he probably saw that as a weak play. when he checked on the turn, if you bet, he has to put you on a pocket pair. If he doesn't have a highe pocket pair, he might fold.If he has you beat, most likely he would have reraised you.Aggression is important.

[NickPoker]

He had position so he checked behind

[phuc]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop. You are WA/WB. Why do you c/r? I would prefer c/c, lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think he should check/call the flop and lead the turn if no overcard comes? What if an overcard comes on the turn? Do you check/fold? Isn't this way too weak/passive? I like leading out the flop and folding to a raise or check-raising a decent size on the flop...if I get called on the flop after leading out, I bet about 1/2 pot. If I get called on the flop after check-raising, I'm not sure what I do...I guess after this thought, I prefer leading the flop and folding to a raise.

What should be done if I check-raise the flop and get called? My thoughts are check/fold if there were no real draws on the flop for the original raiser to be calling with (such as flush draw), but that may be too tight (because 99 may take the pot down if the original raiser bets the turn).

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
So you think he should check/call the flop and lead the turn if no overcard comes? What if an overcard comes on the turn? Do you check/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's an ace, yes, if not, no.
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this way too weak/passive? I like leading out the flop and folding to a raise or check-raising a decent size on the flop...if I get called on the flop after leading out, I bet about 1/2 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is calling you on the flop? I think at this level it is pretty safe to assume that he is going to fold ace high and he will call with an overpair. So your way, you lose the same against an overpair and you win less against ace high. I don't see how that could possibly be better.
[ QUOTE ]
If I get called on the flop after check-raising, I'm not sure what I do...I guess after this thought, I prefer leading the flop and folding to a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]
You're right that c/r is worse. It is quite bad, in fact, IMO.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the line too. However, if you put a play on the guy on the flop and show aggression and he still calls, you have to give him credit for a hand. He's likely sitting there wondering what you have that you called a raise and led out the flop. That would scare an AK to be much more cautious unless he's really aggressive. If he bets turn, he's likely got more than TT. If he's got AK, you've got to give it up and give him credit because you are OOP and his agressiveness is too much.

With mid pairs like that gameplan should be to call a raise. If the flop is lower than your pair, bet out or c/r, and if called, be prepared to let go on turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This style of play (weak-tight) is meat for any decent aggressive player. You might as well tell your opponents your hand if you are going to play it this way all of the time. Good opponents will simply learn to fold when you show solid aggression late in a hand and bet you off with anything when you don't.

[phuc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you think he should check/call the flop and lead the turn if no overcard comes? What if an overcard comes on the turn? Do you check/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's an ace, yes, if not, no.

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this way too weak/passive? I like leading out the flop and folding to a raise or check-raising a decent size on the flop...if I get called on the flop after leading out, I bet about 1/2 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is calling you on the flop? I think at this level it is pretty safe to assume that he is going to fold ace high and he will call with an overpair. So your way, you lose the same against an overpair and you win less against ace high. I don't see how that could possibly be better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see. This makes a lot of sense and I like your line. You are taking the chance that if he has an Ace, you will let him draw at it with probably 3-outs. If he has any other overcard, you may pay him off if it hits the turn. That's where I'm worried about the check/call though. I'm assuming in most cases, you will be WA/WB as you said, but are we assuming that if he hits an overcard other than an Ace, you are paying him off on the turn and the river anyway?

Let's say you check/call the flop and lead out the turn (even if it is an overcard except an Ace)? Do you check/call the river if any overcard hits or do you bet out (overcard includes an Ace)? Are you calling 3/4 size pot bet on the river if you check? (He may have an overpair, just Ace-high, or hit any other overcard on the turn, but Ace-high isn't likely due to the turn call)?

[TheWorstPlayer]

As I said before, I'm leading on the turn (prob around 2/3 pot) and then I'm c/f the river if I get there.

[phuc]

That sounds good. I'm still learning so thanks for your responses.

[TheWorstPlayer]

No problem. The key in these situations is to put yourself in the other person's shoes. If you are ahead of them then they must have such a fragile hand that they should be very wary of putting money into the pot. Therefore, if they have the choice of putting more money into the pot or less money, if they are holding a hand you are beating, they should be choosing less money. If they are choosing more money, it is probably because they don't have a hand you can beat. So if they raise ever, you fold. If they bet when they can check, you fold (except for the flop continuation bet). That's my basic view of the best ABC line against completely ABC opponents. This governs most of SSNL.

[kingofswing]

A decent player with overcards would respect your tightness and put you on a real hand if you check raise this flop. He would know he's not getting the odds to call and your check-raise could be a mid-pair all the way to rockets. Unless he is just flat out reckless with his chips, he's going to lay that one down. If he calls, you have to give him credit for something. If he's that bad to call a raise on the flop with just AK in raised pot, then screw this hand, I can find plenty of other good opportunities where I've got him drawing dead when he calls on the flop.