Everybody hates this spot...whats your MINIMUM hand to call it

[DcifrThs]

average high limit game. so people are pretty agro and even the fish are "knowedgable" but still poor players.

you open in the 1) hijack, 2) CO, and 3) button

in situation 1, the CO or BU 3 bets and teh sb or bb caps. what do you call with.

in situation 2, either the button or the sb 3 bets and either the sb or button caps. whats your minimum calling hand?

in situation 3, the sb 3 bets and bb caps.

these are your "average" player so clearly the worse they play and the more agro they are the looser you can go. but im talking on average.

the reason i asked is because something just happened exactly like that and i folded QJo which i think is correct...i mean, what could the capper have that you're happy to take QJo up against even w/ position? TT-77 is your best bet...

then i started thinking about developing at least a range here and that lead me to post it.

so for those 3 situations, what are your min. calling hands...keep in mind w/ pairs you're getting 4and change:1 on the calling 2 back. so you need to make 8 sbs back during the hand to call when you hit your set. and way more if you plan on continuing unimproved.

-Barron

[La Brujita]

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so for those 3 situations, what are your min. calling hands...keep in mind w/ pairs you're getting 4and change:1 on the calling 2 back. so you need to make 8 sbs back during the hand to call when you hit your set. and way more if you plan on continuing unimproved.

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This part confused me. If you are continuing unimproved isn't it because you think your hand might be good?

[DcifrThs]

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so for those 3 situations, what are your min. calling hands...keep in mind w/ pairs you're getting 4and change:1 on the calling 2 back. so you need to make 8 sbs back during the hand to call when you hit your set. and way more if you plan on continuing unimproved.

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This part confused me. If you are continuing unimproved isn't it because you think your hand might be good?

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yea but id say you're pair is not a continuing hand and therefore good players will call for set value alone vs. AVERAGE players. clearly is you're against 2 nutjobs you're going to the SD a lot...but if you plan to continue vs. average people you need to shorten your effective odds on the call back (i.e. if you're not good enough to release postflop when you should you aren't getting 4:1 here, you're getting worse, 3:1 or 2:1 b/c of the extra bets you'll be putting in INCORRECTLY on the flop and beyond IF you can't release when you should)

-Barron

[bobbyi]

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keep in mind w/ pairs you're getting 4and change:1 on the calling 2 back. so you need to make 8 sbs back during the hand to call when you hit your set.

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The three-bettor is calling the cap 100% of the time, so I am getting 5:1 in the case where the raisers are both in the blinds and better than 5:1 in all other cases due to the sacrificed blind money. This is clearly likely to be a hand with a lot of action so I like my implieds here. I think folding any pair is a definite mistake.

[DcifrThs]

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keep in mind w/ pairs you're getting 4and change:1 on the calling 2 back. so you need to make 8 sbs back during the hand to call when you hit your set.

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The three-bettor is calling the cap 100% of the time, so I am getting 5:1 in the case where the raisers are both in the blinds and better than 5:1 in all other cases due to the sacrificed blind money. This is clearly likely to be a hand with a lot of action so I like my implieds here. I think folding any pair is a definite mistake.

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yea i love my math errors: but you still need to shorten odds in the case described in my response above.

-Barron

[ike]

How about any pair, any suited hand I was willing to open from the hijack with, AJo, KQo.

[DcifrThs]

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How about any pair, any suited hand I was willing to open from the hijack with, AJo, KQo.

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now we're talking...i was considering folding KQo...getting 5:1 u sure you wanna play that there? im not.

-Barron

[geormiet]

In situation 3 I don't think I'm going to fold many hands I opened with. The sb 3 bet represents less strength than the other two 3 betting positions, and of course, you have the button. KQo or AJo however I would hate in this situation and I would fold it. QJo i think I would call...

In situations 1 and 2 I would be more willing to fold a few more hands, such as QJo.

[La Brujita]

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yea but id say you're pair is not a continuing hand and therefore good players will call for set value alone vs. AVERAGE players. clearly is you're against 2 nutjobs you're going to the SD a lot...but if you plan to continue vs. average people you need to shorten your effective odds on the call back (i.e. if you're not good enough to release postflop when you should you aren't getting 4:1 here, you're getting worse, 3:1 or 2:1 b/c of the extra bets you'll be putting in INCORRECTLY on the flop and beyond IF you can't release when you should)

-Barron

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Ok now I get what you are saying. What I was thinking was you are devoloping a game plan for yourself. You play well post flop so assuming you would play poorly post flop didn't make sense.

Anyways to answer your question I think very opponent dependent but I generally release AJo and KQo. I play all my pairs. I fold suited connectors I might have opened with.

[ike]

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KQo or AJo however I would hate in this situation and I would fold it. QJo i think I would call...

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This is silly, we're scared in this spot because one of the players might have a pair bigger than our cards. The bigger our cards are the better. No way you play qj but not aj.

[disjunction]

Heh, I just ran this through PokerStove and QJo had about the same equity as KQo, both around 20%. Which would make both folds since you won't know what to do with top pair. And yet still I'd barely ever fold KQo.

[Peter_rus]

In situation 3 for me it depends on sum of their PFR's . IF sb able to 3-bet KTo/A3o/JTs/22 and BB is capable to cap AJo,88,ATs and the like i would call any PP as well as suited broadway cards, AQo and rarely AJo. I would muck any suited aces or KQo.

[ShortySaurus]

am i bad if i call any pair, maybe any suited connector 7 or better? AJo and better?

[geormiet]

I think I am specifically afraid of AK, but that's a good point.

[DcifrThs]

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In situation 3 for me it depends on sum of their PFR's . IF sb able to 3-bet KTo/A3o/JTs/22 and BB is capable to cap AJo,88,ATs and the like i would call any PP as well as suited broadway cards, AQo and rarely AJo. I would muck any suited aces or KQo.

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thank you peter, very glad you responded.

-Barron

[DeeJ]

The trouble is, when the players are smart and get to know that you'll try to avoid situations where you are behind with (say) KQo, they'll cap to push you out.

So if the players are real good, I'll sometimes play along for a flop whatever I hold given that they think I've got a monster (when in fact I've got JTo) - especially from the blinds. Then if I get to show it down, I destroy my rock image (which I'm told you've got, dcifr) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
The trouble is, when the players are smart and get to know that you'll try to avoid situations where you are behind with (say) KQo, they'll cap to push you out.

So if the players are real good, I'll sometimes play along for a flop whatever I hold given that they think I've got a monster (when in fact I've got JTo) - especially from the blinds. Then if I get to show it down, I destroy my rock image (which I'm told you've got, dcifr) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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if you're sayingthat a benefit to calling is that they know they can't push you out then fine. that is a benefit. avoiding situations when behind though...doesn't everybody who is smart try to do that?

and even rocks loosen up close the that money called blinds lol...although i think its funny that i am now the token rock.

-Barron

[Net Warrior]

I don't think I'd fold any hand that is a reasonable stealing hand. There's every chance that the 3 better is trying to isolate you with a hand that's not much better than yours. BB most likely has a hand but you're getting 5-1 on the call back. I'd never fold QJo here, or Axs. I'd only fold marginal hands like K9o, J9o, Axo and the like which I probably shouldn't be stealing with anyway.

[DcifrThs]

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I don't think I'd fold any hand that is a reasonable stealing hand. There's every chance that the 3 better is trying to isolate you with a hand that's not much better than yours.

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given he's trying to isolate you, where does a "hand thats not much better then yours" fall in that distribution? not on the EDIT: high end i'll say that for sure.

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BB most likely has a hand but you're getting 5-1 on the call back. I'd never fold QJo here, or Axs. I'd only fold marginal hands like K9o, J9o, Axo and the like which I probably shouldn't be stealing with anyway.

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if you're not stealing Axo and K9o and (to a lesser extent) J9o on teh button then you're not using a good stealing strategy imo.

-Barron

[rigoletto]

I'm not really to happy with dominated hands here (QJ, KQ, AJ) and like 78s much better in this spot. I would still play all of them though on a fit or fold strategy. I think this is a situation with good implied odds; the pot is big and the donks will go to showdown with anything. Any pair and any suited connector plays well in this spot. Folding? Well I think steal hands like K9s, A9o should hit the muck; their high card (top pair) value is mostly gone. A little suited I would play for two pair and flush value.

[Net Warrior]

My standards for isolating a steal would be a 77 or 88, ATo, KQo, KTs, and up.

...and I steal with Axo, K9o, J9o, but I'm just not happy with those hands and I save them for situations where due to circumstances I haven't been stealing much.