Too much?

[QTip]

Villain here was the only fish I was really getting to mix it up with at this table. There were 2 others, but they were off to my left. They weren't in this hand, but there were some tighter postflop players behind me.

I was messing with this guy fairly frequently, winning some and losing some. He was loose and pretty aggressive. I think he would bet just about anything on this flop after everyone checked. He did so plenty of times no matter the # of opponents.

Party Poker (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Decent UTG calls, laggy villain calls, a tight sb completes, and I check.

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

A whatever flop for me figuring I was going to half to fold.

Then Villain leads. If sb called, I was folding otherwise I decided to raise and get HU even though EP may have folded anyway, I wanted to be sure. This is risking a 3 bet, I know, but I thought it was worth it. A-high has some showdown value here against this guy and there are the bd draws.

EP folds, villain calls

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

I bet because I have no other viable option and villain calls. UI on the river, I'm planning on check/calling.

River: 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Well....I improved. However, he's not really a calling station, and I think he's much more likely to bluff at this pot, then he is to call my river bet with something I beat, so I check.

He bets, I call.

He has T /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and MHIG

So...what do you think? Is this just too much FPS or good poker?

[baronzeus]

I don't like it very much, because this is usually spewing. You did a good job of isolating the LAG, but I think he bets a pair here as often as he bets a bad draw. Also, if UTG calls your 2 cold you have just thrown away a BB.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
If sb called, I was folding

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm confused by all the talk of folding. I would have bet the flop. Aside from that, when you check and he bets, you have about 9.5 outs if I added them up correctly, and you're getting 5-1. Even better if the SB comes along. Did you miss that you were double-gutted?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it very much, because this is usually spewing. You did a good job of isolating the LAG, but I think he bets a pair here as often as he bets a bad draw. Also, if UTG calls your 2 cold you have just thrown away a BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say he's betting this flop 100% of the time when's it's checked to him. So, I'm thinking he's got crap at least 50% of the time here.

[W. Deranged]

I'm confused...

How are you possibly considering folding this flop when you have as many as 12.5 outs?

You are double-gutted, have an overcard which might be clean, and a backdoor nut flush draw. Plus A-high has showdown value. The straights might chop sometimes and the A might be dirty but with 10 outs or so on average I think you should probably approaching this flop from a value perspective, in my opinion. With the lag in the position "opposite" you (you have players caught in between both), checking-raising and betting out might both be viable here. Since SB is tight I'd expect him not to call a bet from the lag; in that case (as happened here) the turn will be difficult to play following the check-raise.

Which leaves my line at:

Bet the flop.

[W. Deranged]

Damn... Shant got there first.

Ni han, Shant.

[alul]

I usually don't fight with lags without a hand. Makes more money (saves money actually).

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If sb called, I was folding

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm confused by all the talk of folding. I would have bet the flop. Aside from that, when you check and he bets, you have about 9.5 outs if I added them up correctly, and you're getting 5-1. Even better if the SB comes along. Did you miss that you were double-gutted?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif omg....I missed even when I posted the hand. Should have led.

[QTip]

OK...so I missed that I was double-gutted, which makes this post stupid.

So...please Make the 7 on the flop an 8, and play along again.

[chief444]

Pretty standard Owen. I'm assuming by your post you didn't realize you had a double gutshot. I didn't read any other responses yet so sorry if it's been mentioned.

[callmedonnie]

Looks like you played it great. The flop is great for you, especially if it goes HU with the LAG. I do agree though that this play will only work occasionly and only against few players.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty standard Owen. I'm assuming by your post you didn't realize you had a double gutshot. I didn't read any other responses yet so sorry if it's been mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard without the double gutshot then, right? Had I realized I had that (and shame on me for not), then I think I should have led the flop.

[chief444]

You've still got ~8 outs to a likely best hand most of the time and A-high may be good so I still like a raise but that does make it a bit closer for sure.

[chief444]

3-handed I'd bet this flop pretty often, yes. Especially considering SB in this hand wouldn't check any piece of it.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
So...please Make the 7 on the flop an 8, and play along again.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that changes his range of hands to more pairs and less draws. With the initial board you posted, he can have more gutshot or open-ended draws. I think I would have just folded in the small pot had the flop come 358. You likely would have ~7 outs, but it's going to be hard to blow him off a hand from your read.

Edit: I didn't think of the chances of A-high being good, but I think it's still closer to a fold.

[Buck_65]

Slow down and take a long look at what you have next time before posting. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[colgin]

What is this nonsense about folding this hand on the flop (re-check your hand and the flop).

Good raise. NH.

[thejameser]

you did what you wanted to within the constraints of your initial strategy(the iso raise if sb folded)as your narration indicated(FWIW i imagined Morgan Freeman's voice narrating the hand, he did such a good job of narration in Shawshank Redemption). of course you risked a 3-bet, but inherently every raise does; you are not raising here because that is really a concern FOR THE MOST PART, you are trying to isolate a fishy opponent and get it HU. now if that backfired in your face i would shake my head and say, "No, No, No, FPS got ya", but since it didn't nice play. anyway, hey the turn: the board paired, great, now you have a pair(likely not against a set or fullhouse as you were NOT 3 bet on the flop. obviously a tricky player might reel you in before he popped you on the turn with those hands)with a good kicker and it decreases the likelihood you are behind to an 8. the river is a better card to you than you initially realized as you guys both had a 4 and i don't know that he would have bet without pairing. your reasoning on the check/call was dead on IMO so nice job. for the most part you don't want to ISO raise a guy to death as the other TAGs will see what you are doing and will want to intrude on your profitable little relationship. and this post is another tribute to the stealth of the DBB straight-draw, one of the most difficult hands to identify(in terms of a holding or draw)in poker. OMG this turned into the length of one of your posts...anyway, all really standard. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Two_Slick]

What is this "Double-Gutted"? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
What is this "Double-Gutted"? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't tell if you're serious, so I'll offer a quick explaination.

Instead of a single gutshot (say 65 on a A23 board), you have two gutshots (not 4 consecutive cards like an OESD), for example 65 on a 842 board (2x456x8, so a 3 or 7 makes a straight).

-d

[Two_Slick]

I was just being an ass (sorry, I try not to do that too much here). Thanks for being helpful though.

[pokerrookie]

I like this play. I love it when it works. I kick myself when it doesn't. I spend more time kicking myself than I do patting myself on the back.

The question that I am struggling with myself lately, is whether or not these plays are worth it for the few times they work out. If you had a solid, trusted read on the player, then go for it. If you are the least bit unsure, I guess you should err on the side of letting it go.

[oreogod]

Against a LAG, the way u played it u have to CR. Id probably bet/3-bet (if he wants to raise)...lead the turn regardless. Especially if hes not a calling station.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
You've still got ~8 outs to a likely best hand most of the time and A-high may be good so I still like a raise but that does make it a bit closer for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation, without the double gutter...do u count the Ace as 1.5 or 3ish outs. Im going with 1.5. Anyway just curious.