flop 2 pair on monotone coordinated board [Archive]

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BigBrother

07-19-2005, 03:39 PM

Anybody NOT raise this flop?

Anybody fold to the turn check-raise?

Anybody slow down on the river?

I'm not so much concerned about this particular hand as how to deal with such a coordinated board in general against a large field.

Villain (UTG) is a TAG, table is generally loose/passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ts As (straight flush, ace high).
Hero has Kc Jc (full house, kings full of jacks).
Outcome: UTG wins 19 BB.

sy_or_bust

07-19-2005, 03:53 PM

Don't post tough beats, or results. There isn't anything interesting here except the royal flush.

DemonDeac

07-19-2005, 03:57 PM

o snaaaaap

krimson

07-19-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody NOT raise this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a situation where we could wait until the turn to raise. A lot of cards could damage us here, a fourth spade on the turn with 5-6 people in the pot makes it easy to know we're behind and act accordingly.

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody fold to the turn check-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you knew 100% you were beat by a flush you have 4 outs to fill-up and are getting 1:10 on your call. This is an easy call.

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody slow down on the river?

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Avoid results oriented thinking. You have a massive hand and will typically be up against a flush or ace high straight here, cap it.

Osric

07-19-2005, 04:18 PM

I absolutely HATE flops like this. Ya, you have 2 pair, but with flush draw, and straight draw out there (not to mention KQ possibilty), this hand screams "you are beat" from the second it hits.

That said, I probably play it the exact same way as you did, shaking my head the whole way knowing that I'm going to lose.

Nick C

07-19-2005, 04:23 PM

I would probably raise the flop, but I don't think it's really an easy decision. Driving out all of the stray offsuit aces and nines would improve your chances of winning if your hand is currently best, for instance, but only if no one has the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, which there's no way to get rid of, and I doubt anyone's folding the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif either, especially at a table this loose. And if just one person calls with an ace or nine, there went your hand protection versus a ten on the turn.

Perhaps the raise is for value, but I can see just calling and seeing what the turn brings, in a field this large.

When the TAG checkraises the turn, a flopped flush with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif X /images/graemlins/spade.gif does start looking like a likely holding. So that's 8 combos (A9s-A2s) you want to draw against (obviously you'd fold if you knew he had the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif). KQ (6 combos) is possible too, unfortunately. But I guess there is some chance he's making a play with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, although, if so, you're going to have to call again on the river to pick off the semi-bluff (and calling again unimproved on the river will be costly if there's not much chance he's semi-bluffing the turn).

Folding here might be best, but I say that primarily because of the TAG's likely range (which includes KQ). Ordinarily, getting 10:1, I'd want to call and try to fill up. And if you think this TAG would limp (instead of folding) ATo, then that's another reason to call (though calling against exactly ATo wouldn't be hugely profitable or anything). The QJs possibility (2 combos) is another reason to call, though this is another hand we'll have to call versus again on the river to beat, unless Villain checks the river.

I would raise the river. I might not cap, in fear of KQo. But that's just 3 combos at this point, and you don't have to worry about a 5-bet. Basically, the river looks fine to me.

brettbrettr

07-19-2005, 04:28 PM

I"d tend to raise pre-flop and wait til the turn to raise.

TomBrooks

07-19-2005, 04:43 PM

PREFLOP: I think a raise here is in order. Anyone disagree?

FLOP: With 7 opponents, I figure there is a pretty good chance of a made flush already, and almost certainly a flush draw who is not going to fold anyway. I'd just as soon let everyone stay in the pot and go for my five outer to a boat or quads. There may also already be a made straight and there are almost certainly straight draws out there. I figure I might as well let gutshots stay in also as I don't plan on winning this without a full house.

TURN: I would check because a bet will get checkraised by a straight or a flush or maybe even 3 bet and capped and I don't want to fold but don't want to pay extra for this tough draw.

RIVER: Standard.

Nick C

07-19-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TURN: I would check because a bet will get checkraised by a straight or a flush or maybe even 3 bet and capped and I don't want to fold but don't want to pay extra for this tough draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't like this turn check-through idea when I first read it. But, come to think of it, if the TAG who led the flop has solid EP preflop standards, then it does seem like we'll be getting checkraised here on the turn quite a bit.

MVicuna

07-19-2005, 05:15 PM

Hi,

Am I the only one who thinks KJs should raise 2 EP limpers when in MP? This should keep most of the LP players out of the pot thus improving your position.

That said, with a reasonable player (edit) UTG bets and then calls a raise rather then 3 betting(edit), checking the turn is probably ok. He may have missed his Limp-reraise with AA/KK, He is probably sitting on KQ or the other KJ or the nuts. He won't have hands like ATo or K8 here. He *may* have 88 with the 8 of spades, but its a long shot.

Also, its obvious to everyone you have trips kings or a FH. Just calling is right, not reraising.

Later,
MarkV.

w_alloy

07-19-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: With 7 opponents, I figure there is a pretty good chance of a made flush already, and almost certainly a flush draw who is not going to fold anyway. I'd just as soon let everyone stay in the pot and go for my five outer to a boat or quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not as likely for these hands to be out there as some people may think. Againt 7 random hands, there is a 26% chance someone has the flush, and a 60% chance someone has the A, T, or 9 of spades (45% if you exclude the 9 which might fold). There is a 9% chance someone has AT or T9 independently. The chance of a set being out there is about 5%.

Of course, all these chances arent adjusted for the cards your opponents will play, but this adjustment isnt too large considering the pre-flop action and the table type.

I think you are good easily enough here on the flop to raise/bet for value. I also bet the turn blank (you are now likely good given the flop action), and you are getting odds to call the check raise for the fh draw. You cant slow down on the river.

BigBrother

07-20-2005, 02:34 PM

My thoughts:

Preflop - This is a 'SSH Loose' table, raising is generally good, but the table has been preflop reraising enough that I don't really want to see this one become a behemoth with KJs in MP. I don't hate raising here, but my read is there will be several limpers and/or a few cold-callers either way so I'll choose to see this particular flop more cheaply.

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody NOT raise this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really DO struggle with hands like this since I flopped something 'good' but not awesome, I 'could' be beat and drawing slim, and I 'could' get sucked out on, but I also 'could' win a ton of value bets the way this table is playing.

Against a tight, tough table I know I must be very cautious, but at this Loose/Semi-passive table I think I might be good enough of the time that I'm getting decent odds on the bets I am putting into the pot.

The main value I am looking for with the flop raise is to get paid by any fishie willing to go along for the ride ( say an offsuit A or T drawing to a gutshot), to gain information from any fishie who has me beat and will let me know on the cheap street so I can fold the turn if I don't improve, and to possibly give me the option to see the river for cheap if I decide I need to improve to get to showdown. I am also looking to fold out anybody behind me who has a baby spade, or again to get the value from them if they miss. Also folding out people behind me improves my position since I've decided to pursue the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody fold to the turn check-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I could easily get check-raised on the turn here, but I can't bear the thought of giving the EP limpers a free card, when their bet-call on the flop is 'probably' what I would do with the lone A or T. So I bet, knowing I will have to fold to raise-reraise.

The TAG's line (bet-call, check-raise) on this board screams that I am beat, but I think I have odds to call (again I really failed to consider KQ, which probably makes the call marginal but I'm going to do it anyway, especially since it's heads up now an I have position.

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody slow down on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a case of "I know he knows" (since I am jamming when the board pairs after his check-raise) and he still reraises, so what could he re-raise with that I beat? In the moment I didn't go through the full thought process, and I probably overlooked KQ (Which is really bad cuz I'd recently had the EXACT thing happen with AT vs AJ).

Against the fish I cap it cuz they'll take this line with the nut flush then look down in amazement that they were beat by a boat, but in retrospect I lost a bet here against the TAG who would know better (he would have certainly open-raised with JJ or QQ, and would probably not check-raise the turn with those hands).

(Side note: The Jackpot for the Black Royal at my local B&M $4/8 game is up to almost $7K...I'm playing any two, any position, for any amount!)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not so much concerned about this particular hand as how to deal with such a coordinated board in general against a large field.

Villain (UTG) is a TAG, table is generally loose/passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

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