KK....will you or won't you?

[xGoreDudex]

I played this hand today. And from what I know I played it therorectcally correct. I mean KK pre-flop is a awsome premium holding. However, when the pot is capped and you have 3+ callers, this offers a great payout for when your KK's hold up.

This is a situation I cam across today....

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (10.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (14.70 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 16.70 BB

If I would have stayed in this pot I would have won, one player had Queens and the other had J9o (I attribute player b's holding to the limit's we are playing), However I feel my fold is correct..the only error I see looking back is not 3 betting the flop. With that said, I believe with the pre-flop caps and the flush draw on the board (yes I hold the Ks but there are definatley better situations to be in).

1) I thought I was drawing against either, JJ or AJs (spades)
2) based on this "read" I feel a fold was warrented.

3) I hope you bereate this play, as I really am struggling sometimes with premium holdings in marginal situations, granted if I had lost this pot I'd be patting myself on the back, however I would have won had I stayed in, but that's neither here or there.


Who else folds this? or am I just wayyy gone on this one.

[tiltaholic]

you simply cannot play the flop the way you did.
you folded closing the action getting like 21:1 (if i counted correctly). at the very least you should have called to hit your K.

you need to raise the flop.

do not fold the flop for one bet closing the action getting 21:1.

[adsman]

Wow, I can't really believe that you folded this. What sort of flop do you like with KK? Cause it doesn't get much better than this. You even have the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
However I feel my fold is correct..

[/ QUOTE ]
http://home.earthlink.net/~bodhibones/images/MoneyBurn.jpg

[AmarilloJim1]

Raise the flop, don't fold.

[xGoreDudex]

Well, again probably bit gun shy loosing a few BB's with some preium cards my last couple of sessions, My thinking was that with the amount of players capping, JJ wasn't out of the question here, the flush draw came on the board, as well as a straight draw by the turn i believe, either way with the pot multi-way and people firing chips, I believe I wasn't as strong as I thought, I layed it down, I definatley agree I should have fired this flop, but will never know.

Thanks for responses.

[Lavarn]

Hero folds on the flop??

With KK building a big pot preflop, I don't think you can fold on the flop regardless of what comes. Especially when it is only one bet back to you, I think your backdoor flush draw alone justifies calling one additional bet, even if you could somehow see that the raiser had T9 for a straight.

The first call on the flop is probably ok since you are planning to raise the turn to protect your hand. When the button raises behind you it sucks, but you really can't put him on anything better than top pair at this point. Reraising the flop isn't a bad play, or betting out on the turn when the harmless 2 hits. Just don't fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[albedoa]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was that with the amount of players capping, JJ wasn't out of the question here

[/ QUOTE ]

Count again. How many were capping?

[Vote4Pedro]

No offense, but this is easily makes my Top 5 Weakest Folds of All Time. Make it 3 on the flop, and go from there. You have an overpair and a backdoor flush draw in a huge pot, folding is soooo bad

[xGoreDudex]

3 players capping pre-flop,including me
4 to the flop...thinking reasonably, I can't see why JJ isn't a strong possibility.

[Rosencrantz1]

You failed to protect your hand -- which is very likely ahead -- on the flop by calling instead of raising.

You're ahead of a lot of potential hands at the get go: AK, AQ, AJ, QQ, KJ even TT or 99 if the table is loose.

By the time the turn came, you would have been in good shape. You're ahead of several likely hands -- QQ, JJ and there's only one way to make a straight. The low cards mean that a 2p holding is slightly less likely, given the preflop action.

Against AJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif you are an almost 2:1 FAVORITE.

The pot is a decent size.

Terrible, terrible fold (is that berating enough?)

[Lavarn]

JJ is a definite possiblity, but just because it is possible that someone holds a better hand than you doesn't mean you should fold, especially in a huge pot. Even if the guy were to show you his JJ, I still think you have odds to call and try to hit your K. Folding is out of the question.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
3 players capping pre-flop,including me
4 to the flop...thinking reasonably, I can't see why JJ isn't a strong possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is called seeing monsters.

It would be very helpful if you would provide reads regarding the villains. That said, here's my analysis:

Pre-flop: You should have capped with KK. Get the money in the pot pre-flop with such a strong holding.

Flop: You should have bet to protect your hand. You had plenty of outs even if not the best hand at the moment, 9.5 outs by my counting (K, K, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, and 1.5 outs for runner-runner flush), which means your drawing odds were abut 3.85-to-1. Yet your immediate pot odds were 17.4-to-1 (with arguably greater implied odds). You definitely should not have folded when it came back to you with immediate pot odds of 21.4-to-1.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
And from what I know I played it therorectcally correct

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you didn't play it correct.

You have an overpair here on the flop.
You make two mistakes.

#1: calling with an overpair in a huge pot where you gotta raise to protect your hand (a call might be correct if you plan to raise the turn, since you cannot really protect your hand on the flop)
#2: folding a hand that will hold up a significant majority of the time in a 21SB mega pot. ouch

[tiltaholic]

just stop it.

it is an incorrect use of a phrase that is used too much.

the flop raise is for value.

edit- typo

[flo]

You are almost always ahead here, raise for value.

[Vote4Pedro]

[ QUOTE ]

just stop it.

it is an incorrect use of a phrase that is used to much.

the flop raise is for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This feels like the 10th time I've quoted you today tilt, you must feel honored /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just curious why you say it's an incorrect phrase??? Wouldn't a bet here be "to protect his hand" in that it would be to protect a strong hand in a large, multiway pot? Please indulge this beginner. Thanks.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
And from what I know I played it therorectcally correct

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (16.40 SB) J, 7, 8 (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB folds, MP1 calls, Hero folds.


[/ QUOTE ]

Blehk, thats me throwing up all over my keyboard.

[Lavarn]

There is a difference between a bet to protect your hand and a bet for value. In a bet to protect your hand, you are trying to get other people to fold hands that could potentially outdraw you. However, in a pot this large, a bet on the flop would not protect your hand because anyone with a reasonable chance to outdraw you has odds to call. Instead, the bet on the flop would be a bet for value. You know that people will outdraw you fairly often, but you bet anyway because you will win more than your fair share of the time.

In general, protecting your hand is more profitable than betting for value, because you force people to either fold or make unprofitable calls. In this example it is difficult to protect your hand. The best try is to just call on the flop and plan to raise the turn, but when the button raises behind you, the plan fails. You have to resort to betting for value and hoping for the best.

Thank you for the explanation. It was helpful.

But, wouldn't a raise on the flop here be to protect the OP's hand? That is, wouldn't a raise here tend to cause those that follow to want to fold, particularly if the OP had capped pre-flop?

[Lavarn]

The pot is large enough at this point that even raising the flop and forcing the other players to call two bets would not be enough to make their calling unprofitable in many cases. It's not a bad raise, it just doesn't protect your hand that well. It is a raise for value.

[tiltaholic]

I'd rather say "protecting your hand" is betting or raising in order to force your opponents to call with inadequate odds if they should choose to do so.

In this case we are raising for value - we are still giving opponents yet to act 8:1 odds - enough for almost any draw to correctly call.

[droolie]

Raise the flop dude! There is simply no way you can fold like that. Do you realize that you were getting 21:1 on the flop call when you folded? That's enough to draw to two outs even if you knew villian had JJ. But there's no way you can read him on that specific hand yet. You need to put them on a range of hands and wittle that range down until you know you are beaten.

In this hand you are ahead well over 50% of the time here. If you had raised the flop this hand plays very differently. Button probably doesn't 3-bet and the action is likely checked to you on thwe turn.

Making big folds in big pots like this is one of the biggest mistakes in hold 'em. Always err on the side of showing down you good hands. Always!

[kevkev60614]

[ QUOTE ]

1) I thought I was drawing against either, JJ or AJs (spades)
2) based on this "read" I feel a fold was warrented.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm reading this correctly, you thought he had A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif after the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif flopped. What sort of game is this?

[davelin]

Wow, MP1 could turn over 88 and Button could turn over JJ and your fold would still be incorrect.

Thank you. That makes sense.

[666shooter]

Not knowing anything about the players involved...no way I fold this. I understand the concern but the odds you are getting here are too great to fold. I'd 3-bet the flop in the hopes that will slow down MP1 or Button and give some sort of a read.

[detruncate]

I'm sure everyone else has said it, but BAD. Very BAD. Inexcusably BAD. Hope this post is a joke BAD. Don't do this again. Ever.

Overpair + BD second nut flush draw = call/fold? BAD. Hang your head in shame. Voluntarily forfeit your KK privileges.

Did I mention that it was BAD?

[hemstock]

Against loose players I raise the flop and go from there.
Against a very tight raiser, I would call it down.
Against unknowns I also call down.

[silvershade]

Raise the flop and no way fold on it.

[BluEsiNsOuL]

This is not a marginal situation... if there was an Ace on board it was. If you always assume they have the hand that beat yours, there is no way you can play good poker.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
1) I thought I was drawing against either, JJ or AJs (spades)
2) based on this "read" I feel a fold was warrented.


[/ QUOTE ]

He can flip JJ face up and I'm still calling the flop

[ QUOTE ]

3) I really am struggling sometimes with premium holdings in marginal situations

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not marginal. This is just bad poker.

[12ozLongneck]

Not raising on the flop and then not making a call where you were getting great odds makes Baby Jesus cry!

[terrapin314]

[ QUOTE ]
No offense, but this is easily makes my Top 5 Weakest Folds of All Time. Make it 3 on the flop, and go from there. You have an overpair and a backdoor flush draw in a huge pot, folding is soooo bad

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that emotion.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

[ QUOTE ]


Hero folds.



[/ QUOTE ]

It cannot be stated enough... but you are the god damned devil.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising on the flop and then not making a call where you were getting great odds makes Baby Jesus cry!

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, but I still think he should raise the flop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1) I thought I was drawing against either, JJ or AJs (spades)
2) based on this "read" I feel a fold was warrented.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm reading this correctly, you thought he had A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif after the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif flopped. What sort of game is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

This must be where this guy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2901156&amp;page=1&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14) uses his deck.

[PuckNPoker]

I think everyone has piled on enough to where you get the point that it was played poorly.

Your main fault was your "read" (and then your action based on that read was still incorrect), you can almost never put people on one specific hand early on. You must take what you know about the player, narrow his cards down to a range of hands, and compare your hands to that range. You are ahead of the likely range of hands villian(s) has. Thinking you are likely beat is a sign of a "Tight passive" player (also called "weak-tight").

To help you, I think you would get value from 3 books:
A) Getting Started in Holdem by Ed Miller (specifically the limit section). I'd start at the beginning, Ed will give you a solid base on how to think about hands. He teaches smart aggression.
B) Psychology of Poker by Alan Schoonmaker, the whole book is excellent, but I'd pay extra special attention to the traits of a "Tight Passive" player and his suggesstions on how to become a "Tight Aggressive Player"
C) Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller, THE low limit holdem book, you will read and reread this book many times and it will make you a good player if you put in the effort.

Another notable addition would be to get Pokertracker and study the stats it provides in order to see leaks in your game.

And finally, read these forums every day. Read just the first post and no responses and try posting what you would do in the situation described. Then read other posts and see what you got right, and what you got wrong.

Best of luck.

[bottomset]

if you make these types of folds on the regular, you'll never move up(and profit)