Pre Flop raises NOT knocking very many out!

3-6 in KC...I am frustrated with raising pre flop and still having 4 to 7 players see the flop! It seems that when ANYONE, not just me, raises all it does it get more money in the pot. No chance of isolation until the river!! What is a rookie to do?? Do I raise again on the flop if I catch anything at all? Do I play as if it is just 2 bets to get in??

This is what classically happens at very low limits. Don't panic.


This sort of table makes suited connectors more valuable. You can play your suited connectors and one gappers in earlier positions than you would otherwise; you'll be getting a lot of value for you bets after the flop.


Correlated to that is that high pairs aren't quite as valuable. You'd much rather play AA against one opponent than seven, so if you can count on seven limpers I'd mellow out on reraising with high pairs.


This table is very good for you if you have the courage to drop after the flop if you don't hit gold. Second pair is just about worthless. (You have JT flop KJ5 with seven people you can count on one of them having a king. Drop.) You'll get drawn out on a lot but if you can grit your teeth through it you'll pull in some monster pots when you win.

gotta love high pairs on this table huh? here's an idea...check yer high pairs...yer drawin to a set. BUT...try checkraisin the flop. see if that cuts the field. if an overcard hits the flop with this manycallers, they seem to have it. alot of times these players play just to catch anything on the flop. yep it can be aggravating. but here's another one...raise preflop with high suited connectors. if ya have the bankroll, maybe even mid suited. if ya hit the flop good...then keep betting. your drawing hands will be huge in this game. though this will add bigger swings, it can really get the money.


just some quick thoughts...


b

The idea of second pair being "totally worthless" in a low limit game is waaaaaaaaay off base. If the pot is multiway and there has been just one raise before the flop then calling with second pair is usually correct. Actually if the pot is an unraised family pot then you might be right to call in some spots. Lets say you have T9s, and the flop comes A 9 5. You are on the button and everybody called before the flop, now the SB bets and gets 2 callers. You are getting 13to1 here wich is probably enough. Of course sometimes you will improve and still lose, but you are only about an 8-1 dog to hit, plus you are closing the betting so there is no chance of getting raised. If there is a two flush on board this becomes more risky. Anyway the point is that just because some guy may for sure have the bigger pair doesn't make it correct to fold. The pot dictates the decision in this instance not the strength of your current holding.


Kris

Even in loose games, hand like AA, KK and QQ are NOT just drawing hands. There are plenty of ways you can win without making a set. The most common is when there is a pair on board. They even hold up a lot of the times when they dont improve. Also if you are raising with big suited connectors this is certainly good, but if you prefer to raise with these hands then big pairs, then this is wrong. Also in big multiway pots, often the correct strategy is to wait until the turn to try to knock people out since people are apt to cold call raises on the flop, but they will fold a good amount of the time when raised on the turn.


Kris

The variance will drive you nuts, but you still have to raise for value and call becuase of pot odds...

It just seems that if a lot of people are seeing the flop, it's really hard to have any confidence that even if you improve you'll win. With seven people seeing the flop, I'll expect to see a made straight or flush if it becomes possible, so it seems to me you have to be very careful about evaluating your odds of winning--you can't come anywhere close to countingon two pair or trips to win, can you?

Of course you can. Two pair and trips are usually strong hands in holdem and often take down the pot. Folding too much in big pots can be a huge mistake. If you just wait to make straights and flushes you will only win a couple pots per night and this wont amount to sh!t. Afterall do you just give up when you flop top pair? I think not, yet you "only" have one pair.


Kris

didnt say they were unplayable for value. but ya gotta be careful with AA KK QQ JJ...what your hoping for is undercards. when ya have KK and an A hits the flop with 7+ callers, ya gotta decide how far your gonna go with it. with QQ any A or K hits yer pretty much toast. with AA i would raise and bet til someone raised. they dont hold up that much especially with 7 callers in the pot. you have to be able to release em. THATS where ya save the money on these hands...


the point about not raising with them is primarily for the QQ and JJ. with say 6 limpers, yer not gonna limit the field. and people on these tables tend to chase overcards. it can go either way. i prefer to save some variance and see the flop cheap. if im in late with 5+limpers i will tend to raise KQs more-so than JJ or QQ. these hands suck in multiway pots. alot of money saved on these tables is also on the flop. flop play is a major key on these tables.


the checkraise...1 reason i usually try it on the flop is that people on this limit tend to fear the check raise. so i see how it affects them. if it doesnt, then i note who to try it on the turn with. about the only thing that slows em a little. yes its better on the turn pricewise, but these people tend to chase the gutshots and their lone A-crap all the way. if ya find they cold call a C/R on the flop..adjust and start doin it on the turn then. the idea of the doubled bet on the turn is sometimes lost on em. these usually are not thinking players...its also situational too.


these are just some ideas that i found useful when i played this type of table. you hafta think a little defensively with your bankroll. have in mind 3-4 options going into the flop: how far youll go with it. if 1 overcard hits are ya gonna test the waters...stuff like that.


nothing is written in stone. just givin ideas and my reasons behind it.


the real fun tables are the guys who cap all the way blind. get 3 or 4 of them on a table at once and have fun with them. they usually are on lower limits too. wanna talk frustrating..lol

but thats a whole 'nother story...


b

I didn't say that check raising on the flop is bad at all, I was just pointing out that other plays may be better at other times, so its misleading to just say "try to checkraise". One example of where checkraising would be absolutley correct is if a couple late position players are both aggressive and a couple players to your left will respect your raise. This would indeed be an excellent time to try to utilize a field thinning checkraise.

I agree that with pocket K's in a multiway pot you will often have to give up when an Ace flops.


Kris

That game at Ameristar, formerly Station Casino, will leave you talking to yourself. I haven't played there in a few months, but I have logged many hours there. Here is how I approach that same game. In the feeder game, pick on the "any two will do" crowd that flows through. Play your good hands along with suited connectors and small pairs, but be prepared to dump these if you miss the flop. Be sure you are able to separate the regulars who at least have some idea what they are doing from the yahoos who are just there to gamble. Play very heavily on position, and when the oppertunity presents itself, punish the gamblers. The good thing is when you flop your set, or make your nut flush on the turn, they will pay you off. I like to use the check raise to thin the field either on the flop or turn depending upon the opposition. When you have identified the better players, give them some respect. I try not to butt heads with a good player there unless I have a strong hand. There is enough to be made from the fish at the feeder game.


Once you get to the main game, you need to tighten up a little bit. As the weak sisters come in from the feeder game, pick on them when you can. Keep an eye out for people playing too long. I watched a pretty good player dump over a grand in about an hour and half one night when he told me he'd been playing non stop for over 60 hours. This is especially true when the bad beat gets high. The play is slightly more normal than the feeder game, but you can still get good value for some of your drawing hands.


There are a couple of guys that can make life profitable: Tommy Guy, older guy plays all the time. Tommy isn't bad, but if you can tilt him you can clean up. HD is a little Asian guy who can be vulnerable to the same thing. There is one other guy who has a real raspy voice, but I don't know name; you'll know him if you hear him. He is a joy to play with he doesn't walk up to the table, he swims!!! lol.


Hang in there; that game can be beat.


Good Luck,


Fitz


P.S. Is John still the poker room manager over there?

I guess we just disagree.


The difference is that when you flop top pair, you are reasonably confident that you have the best hand, so it's just a question of someone outdrawing you.


With second pair and seven callers? Somebody almost certainly has top pair. So you have to improve and six people have to not hit a straight or flush draw.


Now if I had an overcard kicker, as well as flush or straight draws I might stick around. But playing the second pair strikes me as just asking to be shown a higher pair at the showdown.


Obviously you have to factor in how much it's going to cost you to keep playing and what the odds are. At 12 or 13 to one from the pot, it would be very tempting to keep playing. If you have the discpline to fold if the turn doesn't hit you, great, go for it, but a lot of players don't. The pot can get big enough real quick to make any sort of outlandish draw sound reasonable so this strikes me as a classic way to get sucked into pots with mediocre hands.


Maybe Mason makes a lot of money on second pair, but I see a lot more people lose money with it. The problem is that what strategy do you play? With top pair, it's easy, raise on the flop. Make those flush and straight draws pay. With second pair, where you also have to improve, it's harder to know how to play it. You want to see cards cheaply since you have to improve to win, but you dare not give the flush draws a free card.


Would you raise a lot here knowing you're already probably second-best? Limping along with calls hardly seems like a strong way to play it.

Fitz,


Yep, John is still "hanging" around.I probably know who Tommy and Hd are, but don't know them by name, and yes I've played with the guy with the raspy voice and did not have many hands to play against him. I played this last weekend and was beat on the river by a couple of folks who played the ole NO FOLD EM game. However, I got them later on when my hands finally hit and they just kept on betting. I also found out the secret of dropping the pair if and overcard hits the board. Saved me ALOT of money that night!! It is almost like a light went off on a couple of plays!! Makes the game enjoyable when you finally "get it"!


The poker room has been an enjoyable experience and there are some guys that are just a hoot to watch play and listen to the banter!!! The "older guys" especially and the ribbing they give each other!!!


Thanks for your insights!!


Laddy

Laddy,


I'm glad you're having a good time playing there; I always enjoyed it. I had a very nasty back surgery a few months ago, so I haven't been there in a while.


The game is a lot of fun when it starts to make sense. In those no fold 'em games, you are usually dead when an overcard falls. It is odd though; I've seen the same games go almost totally passive sometimes.


Keep reading and studying and you can beat that game and have fun at the same time.


Good Luck,


Fitz